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View Poll Results: Is CM improving as a TV trainer & offering more apt advice
Yes 45 52.33%
No 41 47.67%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Jackie
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28-05-2009, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean

This poor guy has never met a dog that hasn't tried to "dominate" him which says a lot more about Millan that the dog.


Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Yup, that sums him up perfectly !
Doesn`t it just..
JanieM
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28-05-2009, 06:29 PM
I've never been around for the other CM threads so sorry if this is old territory.

For me, asides from the the whole dominance stuff and his very physical methods, what I don't like is the one size fits all.

I've not watched all the shows so am basing this on the ones I have seen.
He never takes individual breeds into account and what those breeds need out of an owner and what they were bred for. He never rewards (for me a pat on the head or "good dog" isn't enough). He never seems to encourage the owners to interact with their dogs in a positve way ie play and games or dog sports.
I think a lot of these dogs are bored and frustrated and the only exercise CM advises is walks with the dog walking like a robot facing forward and not being allowed to sniff around or anything.

I realise that with very aggressive dogs this is not the priority but I just wish he could show people about how much fun you can have with your dog and fulfill its needs more.
pupsandpets
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28-05-2009, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by janie View Post
I LOVE Cesar... runs and hides
Me too!
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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28-05-2009, 07:19 PM
Shona that foto is just so lovely!
Shona
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28-05-2009, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by JanieM View Post
That's the image people need to see more of. Lovely pics.

Going OT here but last night I had a dream about your dogs Shona. I'm not sure how many you have but there were 3 in my dream and at first I was scared of them but they were so friendly and cuddly that I soon got over that. You weren't there but somehow I knew they were your dogs.........think I am spending way too much time reading stuff on here to be having dreams about your dogs!!!!
lol, some would call that a nightmare

I have four rotties, but teagan was most likely to lazy to join them in even in her dreams lol;
Gnasher
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28-05-2009, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by JanieM View Post
I've never been around for the other CM threads so sorry if this is old territory.

For me, asides from the the whole dominance stuff and his very physical methods, what I don't like is the one size fits all.

I've not watched all the shows so am basing this on the ones I have seen.
He never takes individual breeds into account and what those breeds need out of an owner and what they were bred for. He never rewards (for me a pat on the head or "good dog" isn't enough). He never seems to encourage the owners to interact with their dogs in a positve way ie play and games or dog sports.
I think a lot of these dogs are bored and frustrated and the only exercise CM advises is walks with the dog walking like a robot facing forward and not being allowed to sniff around or anything.

I realise that with very aggressive dogs this is not the priority but I just wish he could show people about how much fun you can have with your dog and fulfill its needs more.
He certainly does take breeds into account, Janie. Many a time I have heard him say words to the effect that with this particular type of breed, what do you expect? You are going to have a harder task to do such and such because of the breed type. He then goes on to show you how, despite the breed, you can overcome the problem, or he demonstrates how you can USE the breed to fix the problem. A good example of this would be the labrador who was fixated with the swimming pool. Cesar donned his wet suit and actually went through his methods with the dog in the water. It ended with the labrador doing a massive dive into the swimming pool and Cesar diving in after him. I would say they were having the greatest fun, AND working on the fact that labradors LOVE water to CONTROL the obsession that this particular lab had with water. It was a very interesting programme, that one.

CM does not only advocate walking a dog, he advises anybody who is capable of roller blading to do just that with your dog. I believe you can buy in-line roller blades off his website? He is a huge advocate of exercise, working on the philosophy that a tired dog is a much calmer, well balanced dog, in a good frame of mind for sorting out any problems, particularly those of aggression. He encourages people to jog with their dogs, to ride a bike, to get out there and exercise their dogs.

He does advocate reward, but only when it is deserved and only when the dog is relaxed and in a calm state, otherwise you are rewarding the dog's negative state of mind. All my dog requires is a pat, or a ruffle of his ears, or just a "well done Tai, good boy". Dogs do not need a heap of treats or loads of praise to know that you are pleased with them and they have done well. He certainly does encourage owners to interact with their dogs, to exercise with them, play sports if you like, go jogging, roller blading, cycling. Cesar is such a bundle of energy I don't think any of the dogs we see on the programmes have a chance to be bored, they are far too busy being run round the block, or whizzed around on roller blades (the humans, not the dogs!).

I'm really not at all sure Janie which programmes you have watched, because your description doesn't match up to any I have seen !
Gnasher
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28-05-2009, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by pupsandpets View Post
Me too!
Me too, with just one or two reservations
Labman
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29-05-2009, 03:05 AM
I didn't vote. I don't have cable TV and have never watched him or read his book. All my information on him is second hand. None of it convinces me watching him would be worth while. From what I have picked up, he has so far to go that some improvement means little.

This is coming from somebody that has preached the importance of leadership for most of the last 10 years on the net.
Promethean
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29-05-2009, 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua View Post
I don't recall the episode being discussed.
The episode in question is the one about the 3 Katrina rescue dogs, who after travelled to his ironically named place in crates.

My comment about fairness (or should I say lack of it) was regarding the comment:
I've watched every episode more than once and I have trouble recalling a time when he didn't bring up dominance. In his view even fearful dogs are dominant.

The lack of training you note is not dominance, it is simply that - NO TRAINING. Actually in many cases it inadvertent training, where the owners are unknowingly rewarding behaviors and then calling Millan so he can jab and kick those behaviors out of the dog.

One example I saw a recently was a Bouvier that liked to jump on their owners. Now, an observant trainer would have noticed that they were rewarding this behavior by pushing back and engaging the dog. It's how many Schutzhund and Agility trainers reward their dogs. He claimed that behaviour which the owners rewarded was dominance.

I think that if you ask every dog trainer they will tell you the same thing. They train owners to train dogs. You see the trainer maybe for 20 hours per training unit, they are not training your dog in this time.

Outside the people who take your dog for several weeks and then give it back to you, all trainers are training the owners and not the dog.

In my opinion his timing when it comes to punishment and
reinforcement is also lousy. In some episodes he has chased a dog and then pulled him back to the scene of the crime to punish him there. In one tragically funny episode he claimed that being proud of the dog is reward.
muttzrule
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29-05-2009, 04:48 AM
See, I can see the good and the bad of CM. I watch the dog wisperer every week, I've seen most all of the them, and I can say that he HAS improved over the years. He is far less violent, and uses more PR methods and fewer phsyically coercive methods.

He does take breed characteristics into consideration, in fact, thats usually a big part of his treatment protocol. For example, a couple had a beagle that Cesar advised playing tracking games with. He advised John Grogran (Writer of Marley and Me) to train his new dog (lab) in retrieving work with marvelous results. He uses treats, he uses positive associations, he uses the pack which is amazing.

He takes dog aggressive dogs and they live with a group of well balanced dogs for a few weeks and learn how to behave like a dog around other dogs, and how to speak dog language. I think this makes sense and it works. I've seen this same method work with horses too. Thats where i think his true genius lies.

BUT....

In my mind he is far to violent with fearful dogs. Hanging them from the leash and alpha rolling, while it isn't shown on TV as much any more, still makes my skin crawl. And using a shock collar to teach a dog to leave a cat alone, boggles the mind. Also the truly "dominant" dog is a rarity. I do think he takes that to the extreme and it is annoying.

But I would say 75-80% of what he does is good stuff.

I think you have to take the good and bad in all things. No one person, or technique is going to be perfect.
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