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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post


I don't know how they all no longer raid the bin, except it is unusual and not the norm, Denise. If you say it has happened like this for you, that's great but it will not be like that for every dog owner.

Dr Ian Dunbar explains the problem as "Owner Absent Problems". John Fisher also mentioned them.

I would concede that with a few dogs, maybe sensitive breeds (you have collies mostly, right?) it may work. But it really does not work that way with them all.

The dogs realise the owner is not at home one day, and raid the bin.

Sorry to disagree, again; have we reached a stalemate?

Wys
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Can I ask when you say NOT NORMAL can I ask what your findings are based on? How many dogs do you personally know who do or do not raid the bin?

You see, we train around 80 dogs a week and raiding the bin rarely comes up - though I will be sure to question people tonight! I believe that we are now in the realms of having trained 10,000 dogs in the last 19 years, and I can honestly say that raiding the bin is a relativly rare problem in my experience. or maybe it just goes unreported? I am fascinated Please tell ....?
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
...

You may, as a dog trainer, prefer Method A, however if you know that this method is not feasible (for various reasons) for the owner then, if we look at what is in the DOG'S BEST INTERESTS you may have to use Method B.

You have to ADAPT to suit the individual dog, owner(s) environment and that is where there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that, unless of course it became a genuine ethical dilemma for the trainer?

Actually I believe there is a book written about ethical dilemmas for dog trainers and behaviourists. I imagine it is very good reading.

Nothing is prescriptive in dog training ...


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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
For multiquote, you select that on each post, and scroll down and then at the end do "Reply" and each post should come up on the reply... HTh?



I don't know how they all no longer raid the bin, except it is unusual and not the norm, Denise. If you say it has happened like this for you, that's great but it will not be like that for every dog owner.

Dr Ian Dunbar explains the problem as "Owner Absent Problems". John Fisher also mentioned them.

I would concede that with a few dogs, maybe sensitive breeds (you have collies mostly, right?) it may work. But it really does not work that way with them all.

The dogs realise the owner is not at home one day, and raid the bin.

Sorry to disagree, again; have we reached a stalemate?

Wys
x
I am of course very familiar with the works of Ian Dunbar and John Fisher. I wonder if they have had to barricade their bins? Does anyone know?
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
....

...In her more recent shows I see her being yanked around by dogs and letting them get away with all kinds of inappropiate behaviours. I feel it seems she so badly wants to praise the dog that it doesn't matter what the dog is doing?
I think you may see that because of the way you train?
If you don't understand methods she uses, (and I think the could be explained a bit more perhaps) then you may see a dog pulling and then no more?

This IS dangerous. it is equally wrong to praise/soothe inappriopiate behaviour as it is to bully/force acceptable behaviour.
But with respect, the peeps I know of who work with highly aggressive dogs, successfully, tend to be rather like VS in their methods. She herself is using up to date scientific methods now, and I bet if you asked her, she'd say she is more confident, and has more success, then before?

Several of us have mentioned Classical Conditioning, and explained that ths is what she is doing, but you've not commented on that. If you understand it, you realise that VS isn't doing what you say she is

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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
I would guess at at least partly luck to be perfectly honest Denise. That method stops most dogs from doing it when somebody is around but a hell of a lot of dogs still do it when it's safe (ie nobody there). About half the people I know who have dogs have a problem with their dog going in the bin or taking food off counters. No amount of shouting at or smacking the dog has stopped them. Not even when the punishment is delivered while the dog is in the act. Rupert only stopped this behaviour after pulling a cupboard down on himself which scared him so badly that he hid under the bed for the rest of the day.

It's an issue that, imo, is much easier to manage than to train out if you've got a dog that learns only to do it when you're not there. I'm all in favour of picking my battles though and this isn't high on my list
Haha, I like that bit!

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sarah1983
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27-07-2011, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
Can I ask when you say NOT NORMAL can I ask what your findings are based on? How many dogs do you personally know who do or do not raid the bin?

You see, we train around 80 dogs a week and raiding the bin rarely comes up - though I will be sure to question people tonight! I believe that we are now in the realms of having trained 10,000 dogs in the last 19 years, and I can honestly say that raiding the bin is a relativly rare problem in my experience. or maybe it just goes unreported? I am fascinated Please tell ....?
My findings are just based on the number of people I see asking about this on forums and the number of friends who've complained about their dog getting in the bin. I have no professional experience to back it up Like Wysiwyg though, I'd consider it a normal dog behaviour to raid the bin.
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I didn't say never did I? Maybe I did - its been a tough day.

I think that raiding the bin is an emergency as well. As are many things that an animal does for the very first time that is undesirable.

So what would you do then?
It would depend on the pup.

If I thought a noise surprise (noise aversion) the safest/quickest thing, I'd do that; if I thought it best to just take the wire, I'd do that.

With some pups, they might just try to hold on harder, in which case you'd probably try a diversion such as the doorbell ringing or even food in their dish. Anything really. As I said, it is an emergency.

What would you do, Denise?

"Emergency" for me is a life threatening thing, we differ on that. I'd see the bin as a training (or management) issue.

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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Thank you for all these interesting responses!

I feel we have gone a little off track however? I think we all agree that (to a point?) all methods have varing degrees and to some extent many are acceptable so long as a dog is being treated fairly and not being trained through fear, anger or frustration.

My original point was:
Just as when CM's methods were being regulary promoted through the media, now with the pushing of VS and other "positive" trainers are we facing the same confusion and potential risks?

Example 1: Owner tries "Alpha roll" after seeing it on TV, Dog gets stressed, trust compromised-bites owner.

Example 2: Owner reads article about positive training, worried that any jerking of lead or verbal correction is deemed cruel therefore when the dog lunges out or pulls and food is not a big enough motivator they lose control- dog pulls owner into road

Example 3. Why we need a "Balanced approach"
Reading an article explaining Sound aversion an owner hides behind a bush and uses a water spray to train the dog to stay away from the vegetable patch- This is a method/product now deemed unacceptable however used correctly it is a good training tool, harmless to the dog and very effective.

I'm pleased to hear that other magazines cover more widely however it does seem that we often only get one sided views.

I visited VS website yesterday as I was interested that Channel 11 is re-running a lot of her shows which still feature "Aversion methods". VS is very keen to express that she no longer uses these techniques..??? I always felt the methods she chose were the " more accepted" ones? Whats wrong with a few "Ah-Ahs" or Cans of Air?

In her more recent shows I see her being yanked around by dogs and letting them get away with all kinds of inappropiate behaviours. I feel it seems she so badly wants to praise the dog that it doesn't matter what the dog is doing?

This IS dangerous. it is equally wrong to praise/soothe inappriopiate behaviour as it is to bully/force acceptable behaviour. Also to be "too soft" on inappropiate behaviours can build tolerance in your dog so that by the time you really mean it you have to resort to stronger methods in order to get the effect....The word again...Balance
I have referred back to my recent post as again I feel this thread has gone off track somewhat....My fault aswell sorry!

I have no doubt that all of us here train our dogs with respect and kindness and we can go on for pages about different techniques and the good and bad experiences of each.

Even though again it illustrates my points, I am sad to see that some of you have picked up merely on some of the vocabulary I've used:

Quote: "Physical correction" means "punishment"---Says who??

Shall I use "Physical communication" instead? should the words really matter? All I know is that what I do is not harsh, mean, cruel etc. My Dogs are all well behaved, healthy, balanced and happy.

It worries me that a trainer can be automatically judged by the words they chose to use before they have a chance to explain or demonstrate. I'm sure this is down to media influence.

Certain trainers/articles have used these words in a negative way and so now it seems we are unable to use them to mean something completely different? The same goes for the methods themselves (Purely positive=Always good, Anything else=Always bad)
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=JoedeeUK;2315129]
So you condone jerking, yanking, poking etc ??? & still call yourself a"Behaviourist"?


No! Absolutely not!
I do not condone any rough or harsh handling of a dog.

Again I used these terms as examples.
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I respect your experience, but it doesnt match my own. .

I have around 30 good friends with multiple dogs in most cases and to the best of my knowledge only one of them has to barricade the bin off!

If the majority of people on here do then I am stunned!

....
Here's a usual scenario:

Just one or two dogs in the home (so not a group who can amuse each other) and ordinary owners (not ones who are into dog training) and they tell their dogs off using a verbal punishment if they raid the bin.

I can guarantee you that a very large proportion of those self same dogs will do it again later when they have the opportunity, when their owners are out, esp. if their owners work. It would not surprise me if all of them did it.


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