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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Gnasher
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03-05-2009, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
We are all wasting our time trying to convince Gnasher away from her 'Alpha' views Some people prefer to believe their dogs are really wolves because they buy into the whole wolf philosophy and the mysticism surrounding it .

I understand Gnasher is a great fan of Shaun Ellis somtimes known as The Wolfman , (please correct me if I am wrong Gnasher)
I saw these wise words on the internet from the pen of Mr Ellis, he is I believe talking about dogs here and not wolves.....

mmm .

I guess if you make your living from an involvement with Wolves you may start to view other things in those terms.
I am Mini, and that response from Shaun was in response to my question posed to him on another website !

And my last dog in particular, Hal, really was a wolf, so I don't to be philosophical about it ... I actually lived with the reality ! And before, many years ago, have interacted and lived with domesticated pure wolves. Believe me, the mysticism and starry eyes soon wear off !!

Shaun was indeed talking about dogs, because the question I posed to him was about dogs, not wolves. I told him that we were having a very interesting debate on another dog forum about whether or not he felt I was being cruel being "alpha female" to my dog, Tai, and that was his reply - the one that you have posted.

The answer of course is no, I am not being cruel to Tai, provided that I don't use force, which I don't. He has actually gone on to say as Tai is a beta, I am actually being cruel if I don't give him the correct leadership !

So there, I have my answer. And my answer is that I am absolutely doing the correct thing in my relationship with my dog. I knew this already, by the bond that we have created in such a short period of time. The dog was stressed and unhappy when we collected him from his previous owner, but from the moment he jumped into the back of the Audi, his whole demeanour changed, he knew he was going home. The bad manners and one or two other problems, we ironed out smoothly and easily within a week of having him.

Believe me, Tai is one happy and well balanced ... and very spoiled ( ) pooch !!

Although everyone is entitled to their own view of course, no-one knows my dog, none of you have met my dog, or me, and I have to say I am less than comfortable with the tone of your posting, Mini ! However, it is your view, and fair do's, if I don't like the heat, I can leave the kitchen can't I ! So no, I am afraid neither you, Shaun Ellis, Cesar Millan or God himself would be able to convince me that I am doing anything but the best for Tai. He absolutely loves being bossed by a sassy old bitch ... don't all males, whether they be human or canine ?? !!
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Gnasher
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03-05-2009, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Yes I didn't say you didn't ...


I'm so so sorry to read this, that must have been awful



What I meant was that with the same scenario, that would happen very probably to the posters who have posted to say they disagree with the alpha view....Ie you don't have to be alpha for that to happen. You can be the dog's owner or guardian or "parent" but you don't have to act as an alpha for the dog to be afraid under such circumstances...

Wys
x
I think that rather annoyed statement was aimed at Promethean, Wys, rather than you !! I can't look back because my computer keeps crashing when I try to, but I think it was he who had made a comment about this not being the case, and I was reassuring everyone that I am absolutely blaming myself for making Hal scared of thunder and fireworks !! And you are right, you don't have to be an alpha for your dog to be afraid of something that you are afraid of. My point is this ... that if you set yourself up to be alpha, to be Pack leader, and you are doing the job well, the dog looks to you for reassurance the whole time. If you then jump out of your skin every time there is a loud noise overhead, you don't need to be Einstein to work out that your dog could develop a phobia of loud noises !

The same with our children. I learned my fear of moths from my mother most likely when I was a baby. She probably freaked when a moth was flapping round the light, and I picked up on it. This is how the young of all species learn what to be scared of, and what not to be scared of. Some fears, such as the fear wolves have for man, is not learned from their parents, it is an instinctive fear that kicks in at around 3 weeks. Hence the reason why people who breed pur wolves in the States as pets take the cubs from the mother before 3 weeks of age and raise them by hand. It is totally illogical for anybody to be scared of a moth, but it is totally logical for a wild wolf to be scared of humans, or indeed a baby to be scared of spiders. There are some deadly poisonous spiders in the world, and a fear of spiders is a very sensible one.
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CheekyChihuahua
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03-05-2009, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I am Mini, and that response from Shaun was in response to my question posed to him on another website !

And my last dog in particular, Hal, really was a wolf, so I don't to be philosophical about it ... I actually lived with the reality ! And before, many years ago, have interacted and lived with domesticated pure wolves. Believe me, the mysticism and starry eyes soon wear off !!

Shaun was indeed talking about dogs, because the question I posed to him was about dogs, not wolves. I told him that we were having a very interesting debate on another dog forum about whether or not he felt I was being cruel being "alpha female" to my dog, Tai, and that was his reply - the one that you have posted.

The answer of course is no, I am not being cruel to Tai, provided that I don't use force, which I don't. He has actually gone on to say as Tai is a beta, I am actually being cruel if I don't give him the correct leadership !

So there, I have my answer. And my answer is that I am absolutely doing the correct thing in my relationship with my dog. I knew this already, by the bond that we have created in such a short period of time. The dog was stressed and unhappy when we collected him from his previous owner, but from the moment he jumped into the back of the Audi, his whole demeanour changed, he knew he was going home. The bad manners and one or two other problems, we ironed out smoothly and easily within a week of having him.

Believe me, Tai is one happy and well balanced ... and very spoiled ( ) pooch !!

Although everyone is entitled to their own view of course, no-one knows my dog, none of you have met my dog, or me, and I have to say I am less than comfortable with the tone of your posting, Mini ! However, it is your view, and fair do's, if I don't like the heat, I can leave the kitchen can't I ! So no, I am afraid neither you, Shaun Ellis, Cesar Millan or God himself would be able to convince me that I am doing anything but the best for Tai. He absolutely loves being bossed by a sassy old bitch ... don't all males, whether they be human or canine ?? !!
Great post!
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Meg
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03-05-2009, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I am Mini, and that response from Shaun was in response to my question posed to him on another website !

And my last dog in particular, Hal, really was a wolf, so I don't to be philosophical about it ... I actually lived with the reality ! And before, many years ago, have interacted and lived with domesticated pure wolves. Believe me, the mysticism and starry eyes soon wear off !!

Shaun was indeed talking about dogs, because the question I posed to him was about dogs, not wolves. I told him that we were having a very interesting debate on another dog forum about whether or not he felt I was being cruel being "alpha female" to my dog, Tai, and that was his reply - the one that you have posted.

The answer of course is no, I am not being cruel to Tai, provided that I don't use force, which I don't. He has actually gone on to say as Tai is a beta, I am actually being cruel if I don't give him the correct leadership !

So there, I have my answer. And my answer is that I am absolutely doing the correct thing in my relationship with my dog. I knew this already, by the bond that we have created in such a short period of time. The dog was stressed and unhappy when we collected him from his previous owner, but from the moment he jumped into the back of the Audi, his whole demeanour changed, he knew he was going home. The bad manners and one or two other problems, we ironed out smoothly and easily within a week of having him.

Believe me, Tai is one happy and well balanced ... and very spoiled ( ) pooch !!

Although everyone is entitled to their own view of course, no-one knows my dog, none of you have met my dog, or me, and I have to say I am less than comfortable with the tone of your posting, Mini ! However, it is your view, and fair do's, if I don't like the heat, I can leave the kitchen can't I ! So no, I am afraid neither you, Shaun Ellis, Cesar Millan or God himself would be able to convince me that I am doing anything but the best for Tai. He absolutely loves being bossed by a sassy old bitch ... don't all males, whether they be human or canine ?? !!
Hi Gnasher I am rather confused here, have I missed something I wasn't aware we were having a debate about (see the highlighted part of your post above)
'' whether or not he felt I was being cruel being "alpha female" to my dog ''

See my post above, I actually said in response to a post by Clare and again I quote ..

We are all wasting our time trying to convince Gnasher away from her 'Alpha' views Some people prefer to believe their dogs are really wolves because they buy into the whole wolf philosophy and the mysticism surrounding it .

I understand Gnasher is a great fan of Shaun Ellis somtimes known as The Wolfman , (please correct me if I am wrong Gnasher)
..that we are wasting our time trying to convince you away from your Alpha views , I have made no mention of your being cruel .

Is this debate about your being cruel?
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ClaireandDaisy
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03-05-2009, 02:44 PM
One of my sons would argue that night was day. In the end we`d just agree with him and he`d argue from the the opposite side. So...
Yes, Gnasher, you are an Alpha Male (in female form of course)
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Wysiwyg
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03-05-2009, 04:10 PM
I think for me the main thing is that no-one on here seems to actually treat their dogs by following the pack leader theory (as in, the early John Fisher, Jan Fennell, et before your dog and do not allow it on the furniture or it will take over etc) nor in the earlier "dominance" model (ie some hard dog trainers who believed in alpha rolling etc for very small misdemeanours) nor is anyone seriously suggesting that Mech's recent research is actually wrong (except perhaps Gnasher's hubby?).

So, I must say I think many of the people who have voted for Yes simply don't really understand what has happened to the science behind the story and the myth of the alpha wolf.

The simple fact that cannot be argued with is that, with the knowledge we have to date, NO-ONE can actually BE an Alpha in the sense it once thought.
That's a fact!

So anything else is not scientific but is in fact using the A word purely in a way that is not correct. As Mech has said (and let's remember Mech has studied real wolves for most of his life... )

http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf

"The issue is not merely one of
semantics or political correctness. It
is one of biological correctness such
that the term we use for breeding
wolves accurately captures the biological
and social role of the animals
rather than perpetuate a faulty view".

I think this is really important. It's not fair to dogs, wolves or humans to perpetuate something that is biologically not correct!


"However, it has been said that it
generally takes about 20 years for
new science to fully seep down to
general acceptance, including even
new medical breakthroughs. Such
seems to be proving true with the
alpha-wolf concept".

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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03-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Shaun was indeed talking about dogs, because the question I posed to him was about dogs, not wolves. I told him that we were having a very interesting debate on another dog forum about whether or not he felt I was being cruel being "alpha female" to my dog, Tai, and that was his reply - the one that you have posted.
Gnasher, I'm very confused here - was the above referring to this debate here?

Only if it was we aren't talking about whether you are cruel to your dog, we are discussing the whole alpha concept in general.

Secondly, what qualifications has Shaun Ellis got to talk about dogs and be an expert on them?! I'm quite annoyed he thinks he can do so! Good grief

The answer of course is no, I am not being cruel to Tai, provided that I don't use force, which I don't. He has actually gone on to say as Tai is a beta, I am actually being cruel if I don't give him the correct leadership !
But of course you're not being cruel to Thai.
I don't recall anyone saying that?

You are only giving him the guidance that most of us do, with perhaps a few tweaks or differences - in my eyes there is no alpha about it either, but on that we shall continue to disagree no doubt even in the face of all that science which can't be argued with.

Wys
x
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Promethean
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04-05-2009, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
and I was reassuring everyone that I am absolutely blaming myself for making Hal scared of thunder and fireworks !!

And I say that you had nothing to do with it for the reasons including the necessity for a dog to possess theory of mind far more complex than a 3 year old child.

Menzies RG and Clarke CJ (1995). The etiology
of phobias: A nonassociative account. Clin Psychol
Rev, 15:23–48.

For those that don't want to look it up it basically says that animals are primed to be fearful of loud noises and you don't need to condition the animals to elicit a fear - in the parlance an unconditioned fear response.
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Hi Gnasher I am rather confused here, have I missed something I wasn't aware we were having a debate about (see the highlighted part of your post above)
'' whether or not he felt I was being cruel being "alpha female" to my dog ''

See my post above, I actually said in response to a post by Clare and again I quote ..


..that we are wasting our time trying to convince you away from your Alpha views , I have made no mention of your being cruel .

Is this debate about your being cruel?
No, Mini, I'm sorry, I'm riddled with flu at the moment and clearly not at my best !! Of course I don't think you think I am being cruel, and the debate certainly is not about that.

I asked Shaun in my posting to him on another website if he thought that I was being cruel by being alpha to my boy Tai. And his reply was that no I wasn't, in fact, I would be being cruel if I didn't take on the role of alpha.

Hope I've cleared that misunderstanding up !! I'm beginning to lose the plot here myself, sorry !!
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
One of my sons would argue that night was day. In the end we`d just agree with him and he`d argue from the the opposite side. So...
Yes, Gnasher, you are an Alpha Male (in female form of course)
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