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Location: UK
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29-05-2009, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by muttzrule 
See, I can see the good and the bad of CM. I watch the dog wisperer every week, I've seen most all of the them, and I can say that he HAS improved over the years. He is far less violent, and uses more PR methods and fewer phsyically coercive methods.
He does take breed characteristics into consideration, in fact, thats usually a big part of his treatment protocol. For example, a couple had a beagle that Cesar advised playing tracking games with. He advised John Grogran (Writer of Marley and Me) to train his new dog (lab) in retrieving work with marvelous results. He uses treats, he uses positive associations, he uses the pack which is amazing.
He takes dog aggressive dogs and they live with a group of well balanced dogs for a few weeks and learn how to behave like a dog around other dogs, and how to speak dog language. I think this makes sense and it works. I've seen this same method work with horses too. Thats where i think his true genius lies.
BUT....
In my mind he is far to violent with fearful dogs. Hanging them from the leash and alpha rolling, while it isn't shown on TV as much any more, still makes my skin crawl. And using a shock collar to teach a dog to leave a cat alone, boggles the mind. Also the truly "dominant" dog is a rarity. I do think he takes that to the extreme and it is annoying.
But I would say 75-80% of what he does is good stuff.
I think you have to take the good and bad in all things. No one person, or technique is going to be perfect.
The Marley and Me guy episode was actually where I stopped watching him - sure he sent the guy and dog off to a gundog trainer - but during the episode CM also goded the dog into actually biting a duck and scaring a chicken - I cannot condone any training method that alows another animal to be hurt or scared just for TV
another point someone made (cant rem who) about exercise with inline skates and stuff
Sure its fun to do fun things with your dog - but mental stimulation is more important - dogs need to sniff about and just be dogs
If you have a high energy dog and to calm it down every day you take it for a long run till its tired - sure for a few days that may work - but all that happens is that the dog gets fitter and you have to go out for longer
a high energy dog needs to learn how to calm down and be still, it needs to learn that life is pretty dull
If I have loads of time on my hands I can take my dogs for a 3 - 4 hour walk - but they get more and more energy the further we go
If I want them to be calm when I am out at work or busy or something then a much shorter walk (playing, and sniffing and meeting dogs and stuff)and a clicker sesh and mibby something nice to chew is a much better way to get well behaived calm dogs
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Location: UK
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29-05-2009, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by muttzrule
But I would say 75-80% of what he does is good stuff.
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Location: Northern USA
Joined: May 2009
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29-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean
......
I think that if you ask every dog trainer they will tell you the same thing. They train owners to train dogs. You see the trainer maybe for 20 hours per training unit, they are not training your dog in this time.....
I do have to disagree about ''every'' trainer. Just the competent ones. There are too many classes where the dog learns it gets a treat if it sits, and the owner learns nothing.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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29-05-2009, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by Labman
I didn't vote. I don't have cable TV and have never watched him or read his book. All my information on him is second hand. None of it convinces me watching him would be worth while. From what I have picked up, he has so far to go that some improvement means little.
This is coming from somebody that has preached the importance of leadership for most of the last 10 years on the net.
how can you judge someone you have never watched !You really shouldn't form opinions IMO on what you have been told second hand, this to me seems an extraordinary thing to do. So many people judge CM and Shaun Ellis, say outrageous and frequently very libellous things about them, and when you ask them (in the case of SE) have you ever met the man, the answer is no.
Personally, I would never judge any animal, including a human, unless I had met them face to face
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29-05-2009, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
how can you judge someone you have never watched !You really shouldn't form opinions IMO on what you have been told second hand, this to me seems an extraordinary thing to do. So many people judge CM and Shaun Ellis, say outrageous and frequently very libellous things about them, and when you ask them (in the case of SE) have you ever met the man, the answer is no.
Personally, I would never judge any animal, including a human, unless I had met them face to face
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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29-05-2009, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Labman
This is a very good point. I am out in public with my puppies all the time. People sometimes comment they wish I could train their dog to behave for them. I could train the dog to obey me. They would need to be trained to make the dog obey them.
I do have to disagree about ''every'' trainer. Just the competent ones. There are too many classes where the dog learns it gets a treat if it sits, and the owner learns nothing.
I agree, it is a very good point.
I agree about the "treat" comment as well !
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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29-05-2009, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
I would have to say its the other way round, One thing I do agree with him on, is he at least educates people that dogs need to be exercised.... something that all to frequent is the cause of most of the dogs he sees problems
Good one Jackbox !
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Location: UK
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29-05-2009, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
how can you judge someone you have never watched !You really shouldn't form opinions IMO on what you have been told second hand, this to me seems an extraordinary thing to do. So many people judge CM and Shaun Ellis, say outrageous and frequently very libellous things about them, and when you ask them (in the case of SE) have you ever met the man, the answer is no.
Personally, I would never judge any animal, including a human, unless I had met them face to face
Granted Labman has never watched CM...but considering the amount of coverage we get on this forum alone, one will be able to form an opinion on a person , on what ones owns beliefs are.
AS for for both SE, and CM , my opinions are based on what I read and what I see on TV.
I have strong opinions on some of the nasties in life, I dont have to watch , to know I dont like it
Dont like either of them ,dont like the way either of them work, and I as for SE..yes he looks like he needs a good wash
If we only formed opinions on things we have first hand experience with or watched on the TV... this and other boards would die a death within a few days.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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29-05-2009, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean
The episode in question is the one about the 3 Katrina rescue dogs, who after travelled to his ironically named place in crates.
I've watched every episode more than once and I have trouble recalling a time when he didn't bring up dominance. In his view even fearful dogs are dominant.
The lack of training you note is not dominance, it is simply that - NO TRAINING. Actually in many cases it inadvertent training, where the owners are unknowingly rewarding behaviors and then calling Millan so he can jab and kick those behaviors out of the dog.
One example I saw a recently was a Bouvier that liked to jump on their owners. Now, an observant trainer would have noticed that they were rewarding this behavior by pushing back and engaging the dog. It's how many Schutzhund and Agility trainers reward their dogs. He claimed that behaviour which the owners rewarded was dominance.
I think that if you ask every dog trainer they will tell you the same thing. They train owners to train dogs. You see the trainer maybe for 20 hours per training unit, they are not training your dog in this time.
Outside the people who take your dog for several weeks and then give it back to you, all trainers are training the owners and not the dog.
In my opinion his timing when it comes to punishment and
reinforcement is also lousy. In some episodes he has chased a dog and then pulled him back to the scene of the crime to punish him there. In one tragically funny episode he claimed that being proud of the dog is reward.
AND I agree with your remark about trainers training owners, not the dogs. Cesar does not train dogs, he trains the owners.
We will never agree about CM except possibly on one or two points, but you made me laugh nonetheless !
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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29-05-2009, 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
Of-cause you can , people give opinions/judge/criticize , others every day of their lives... we form opinions on what we read, be it from the media , books, or second third hand as on here...
Granted Labman has never watched CM...but considering the amount of coverage we get on this forum alone, one will be able to form an opinion on a person , on what ones owns beliefs are.
AS for for both SE, and CM , my opinions are based on what I read and what I see on TV.
I have strong opinions on some of the nasties in life, I dont have to watch , to know I dont like it
Dont like either of them ,dont like the way either of them work, and I as for SE..yes he looks like he needs a good wash
If we only formed opinions on things we have first hand experience with or watched on the TV... this and other boards would die a death within a few days.
Well, seeing as there is as much tosh spouted about CM on this forum as anything else, then I don't think Labman is going to get a very unbiased view !
If Labman formed his opinion of SE based on the more scandalous of descriptions on this forum, he would think that Shaun never washed, never changed his clothes, smelt to high heaven, had some serious defects in the rumpy pumpy department, and knew absolutely zilch about wolves. And these are just some of the "nicer" points !
It defies logic and understanding that you can form personal opinions on anyone, or any animal, without meeting that person first. Would you try and train a dog from a distance, without meeting it, via a third person, giving instructions down a mobile phone? No of course you wouldn't. Would you agree to have an affair with someone you had never met (and don't take this personally, it is only an analogy !) ? No, I am sure you would not.
Well, neither, IMO, should Labman come to the conclusion he has done about CM, just from what he has read on here and other forums.
Read the books, watch the programmes, THEN form your opinion Labman ! Likely you will still come to the same conclusions, fair enough, that is your choice in a free and democratic society, but please show enough independence and freedom of thought not to be influenced by those people who think it is OK and acceptable to discuss a public figure's sexual abilities on a dog chat forum !
God forbid if I ever just accepted what the majority of people think on this forum without challenge, just because it IS the majority view ! Blindly believed every scientific paper I read, just because it had been written by a clever clogs with a degree (like my old man, I argue with him CONSTANTLY about everything, as you can imagine !!
)Gnasher by name, Gnasher by nature ... gggggggrrrrrrrr !!!
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