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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Thank you to Lotsadogs, Rune, and others who do understand where I am coming from....I am grateful as I was beginning to worry!

Do you feel that the media has made you more self conscious of how you train, methods and terminology used etc? in a good way or in a bad way?

Does the media portray a true picture of how trainers actually use different methods?

Have you seen (as I have) handlers who are now limiting their methods in order to "conform" only to end up struggling with undesirable behaviour or worse still letting it go "unoticed"?
Idont really know what modern media says (apart from forums)ra _ I can only gauge it from my customers. But they want food based training. I give them food and toy based training. As long as it works according to heir needs.

Made me more self conscious.....erm interesting question but yes quite possibly.

Have I seen handlers who are limiting their methods??

OH YESSSSSSSSS! And getting into real trouble on the way! No doubt about that.

Sometimes people will allow their dogs to do shocking things and then I say, "are you not bothered about that????" And they say, "yes but I cant tell him off can I?" and I say "Why not?" Then they have this look of relief and they say, "so i CAN tell him off?????". And I say, "its your dog and given the circumstances, I think he needs some kind of guidance about the fact that taking the sandwich from your childs plate whilst she is eating is really not a good thing"

Its amazing what confusion people have over what is and isn't ok to do.
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
....

If for instance you raise the dreaded word "E-collar" you are likely to be PERSONALLY attacked, even if you rasied it in a "what do you think about it?" way - With no intention to use one, touch one, but because you have a genuine curiosity about how it may or may not work! I know because its happened to me on a different forum years ago . Sometimes people see the "outlawed" word or approach and then attach to it a pre ordained response along the lines of "you are evil" - without ever reading the original intention.
That does happen, but there are also those of us who prefer to read what a person actually posts and to reply accordingly. Shock collars are always a very controversial topic anyway, I doubt if anyone posting about one would not know that...

I and several others on here had a "friend" who was a shock collar user. He was a good man, who was also interested in reward methods. It's amazing what an open mind can do ...

That is why it's best not to generalise about people, because we are, after all, all very different!
It is when views become fixed, that they sometimes become obstructive to new learning, better thinking and a better outcome for dogs in general. Thats my view and it may be Bollo***.
I wonder exactly what a fixed view is, or if it is REALLY fixed...? Why do people have strong beliefs or views?

It needs to be taken into account, that some people have spent a long time (years) working out for themselves what is wheat and what is chaff. So - it may just be that some have been training the old way, it may be that they have decided to not train using (say) choke chains, because of their experience and their belief system plus education or whatever you like.

You can't just label people and put them into little boxes...

...
I think that your thread has been a good one and your mindset is sufficiently open for this to be a place of great learning. Thank you for starting the thread. Denise Mcleod
I agree it's a good thread, but it's a shame that people are not also more open minded more about the other view - it goes both ways after all.

Wys
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sarah1983
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28-07-2011, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I know I would never do what I am describing below, but in an effort to illustrate my concerns with some distraction techniques I will use this as an illustration.......

If one was going to train a dog TO chew a cable

One would allow the interest in the cable to develop, mark the actual incident with a marker (usually a clicker in my case) then follow that marker with a reward.

If someone is going to use distraction to teach a pup not to show interest in a cable.....

One would allow the interest in the cable to develop, mark the actual incident with a marker (usually a friendly voice, or reacll, or similar) then follow that marker with a reward.

Its the same process. How does the dog know if it supposed to touch the cable or not?
But that's not how I'd distract the dog. I would distract with a sharp "AH!". If I felt it necessary I'd then find the dog something appropriate to do instead of chew the cable and reward for that but I would NOT set up the pattern of "show interest in the cable, be called away, get rewarded" because dogs pick up on those really quickly. Now if I have to "Ah!" Rupert I've found he redirects himself to something he knows is safe to chew or play with. Probably because I've stopped him from grabbing my things so often and then showed him where his toys were and had a quick game when he chose to grab them instead of what he'd originally gone for.

How would you discourage cable chewing?
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
Many apologies, crap eyesight - was Ben Mcfuzzylugs - not sure why I got that wrong. Duh! Many apologies.
Oh Ok! no probs then

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Chris
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28-07-2011, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
I have had a couple of trainers try and use their hands to put my dogs in a sit or a down - my dogs just look confused because I have never done that - and they dont go into a sit or a down because they dont know what is being asked

If they need a gentle reminder I use my hand signal, if they need more then I go back to luring, then hand signal then cue alone guess its just cos I have never taught hands on so it dosent actually make any sense to me to use it at any point - wasnt a deliberate choice or anything I never knew about hands on training
As said, there really is no need in training (in my opinion) for the need for a hands on approach. There are thousands of dogs out there who have been successfully trained to a high standard of reliability without the need for a hands on approach.

To me, it's a no brainer to use hands on. You only have to re-train the commands when the dog is away from the handler as, of course, you cannon push and pull when you can't physically reach the dog.
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
As said, there really is no need in training (in my opinion) for the need for a hands on approach. There are thousands of dogs out there who have been successfully trained to a high standard of reliability without the need for a hands on approach.

To me, it's a no brainer to use hands on. You only have to re-train the commands when the dog is away from the handler as, of course, you cannon push and pull when you can't physically reach the dog.
Yes, true Chris. I used to teach dogs to Sit for example with the old "hold the leash up and push on the hindquarters" and it sometimes worked, more often it was not an easy method as dogs usually did that pressing back on your hand thing

I think it was termed "negative thigamotaxis"

I find hands off easier for many reasons, and then of course you do a lot of general handling for paws, ears etc so that the dog is happy about being touched anyway.

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sarah1983
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28-07-2011, 05:24 PM
Its amazing what confusion people have over what is and isn't ok to do.
THIS is what the problem is, it's not the methods themself, it's the way people interpret them. "Positive training" to many people is simply using food as a reward. They'll still yank the dog around, still push or pull it into position, still alpha roll it but they think that because they reward with food it's positive training.

Then you've got the other side of the coin, those who think it means you have to tolerate anything and everything your dog does because you can never let them know that it's unacceptable.

And the ones who think positive training means you just bribe the dog into behaving and then have to carry treats around with you for the rest of the dogs life. And that you cannot use positive methods with a dog who isn't food motivated.
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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
THIS is what the problem is, it's not the methods themself, it's the way people interpret them. "Positive training" to many people is simply using food as a reward. They'll still yank the dog around, still push or pull it into position, still alpha roll it but they think that because they reward with food it's positive training.

Then you've got the other side of the coin, those who think it means you have to tolerate anything and everything your dog does because you can never let them know that it's unacceptable.

And the ones who think positive training means you just bribe the dog into behaving and then have to carry treats around with you for the rest of the dogs life. And that you cannot use positive methods with a dog who isn't food motivated.
I think that's pretty spot on, Sarah.

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Wysiwyg
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28-07-2011, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
THIS is what the problem is, it's not the methods themself, it's the way people interpret them. "Positive training" to many people is simply using food as a reward. They'll still yank the dog around, still push or pull it into position, still alpha roll it but they think that because they reward with food it's positive training.

Then you've got the other side of the coin, those who think it means you have to tolerate anything and everything your dog does because you can never let them know that it's unacceptable.

And the ones who think positive training means you just bribe the dog into behaving and then have to carry treats around with you for the rest of the dogs life. And that you cannot use positive methods with a dog who isn't food motivated.
I think that's pretty spot on, Sarah. Very succinct!

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Meg
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28-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
if needed like this
but usualy if you keep the pup safely away from them when you cant supervise, distract when needed and make other things more exciting and rewarding the pup sees no interest in a cable that is there all the time and has much more desire to chew the fun things you give them (worked with Mia who chomped my internet cable - she has (touch wood) never chewed anything again since)



again I dont see dealing with an emergency as training, its what happens afterwards where the training is

Get the dog out of the situation - or the situation out of the dog - tell yourself off for putting the dog in a difficult situation that you havent trained him for yet, and then think of a training/manegment plan

for example when I first got Mia I didnt know she was a sheep chaser
I let her off in a enclosed what I thought was a safe field
she got into a sheep field

MY mistake

there was totaly no point I could have punished her until I got hold of her - and then that would have been too late as I would be punishing her for being near me - the thing I wanted
I had to work on managment - making sure she we controled if there were sheep about
and training - socalising her to sheep

and the past month she has trotted alongside a field of sheep with no more interest than if it was a field of grass (of course there is a fence between, there is training and being stupid)
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Look, I'm sorry but let's get a few things straight here

I used to use verbal "corrections" (I had very good timing)
I used to physically "correct"
I used to tell dogs off when they'd done something "wrong"

and ya know what? I have far more understanding and control now than I ever did. The same for many of the people I know.

And what are we using now?

Very few if any, ever, verbal "corrections"
No physical "corrections"
Rarely telling a dog off when they've done something "wrong" (because the dogs are trained and so if you have common sense, you can pre-empt or train a Very Good Sit (as Dunbar agrees, this solves a shed load of problems).).


So what is the problem? I think the problem is that most people are NOT TRAINING and DON'T carry on training after their classes. I think there has actually been a thread about this recently on Dogsey

FEW people ever bother to train their dog to advanced levels (by that I mean pet levels, but I mean something like an Emergency Stop or a Chase Recall).

What people are also not doing is laying sensible boundaries but if I can do this, so can they

So let's get rid of this idea that dogs who are reward trained are disobedient, owners are struggling because of the methods, and so on. The only problem I can see is that training is possibly more complicated (maybe?) and so that can mean that owners are less likely to follow it. However, even that I am not sure about, because Lure and Reward (for example) is very simple.

So I dont' know what the problem is, but I really do not think it fair to lay it all on the people who are trying to make it a better world for dogs (and their humans).

Also it might be good if we all looked at the most up to date info by reading that new John Bradshaw book "In Defence of dogs" and then discuss this again

Wys
x
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
As said, there really is no need in training (in my opinion) for the need for a hands on approach. There are thousands of dogs out there who have been successfully trained to a high standard of reliability without the need for a hands on approach.

To me, it's a no brainer to use hands on. You only have to re-train the commands when the dog is away from the handler as, of course, you cannon push and pull when you can't physically reach the dog.
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
THIS is what the problem is, it's not the methods themself, it's the way people interpret them. "Positive training" to many people is simply using food as a reward. They'll still yank the dog around, still push or pull it into position, still alpha roll it but they think that because they reward with food it's positive training.

Then you've got the other side of the coin, those who think it means you have to tolerate anything and everything your dog does because you can never let them know that it's unacceptable.

And the ones who think positive training means you just bribe the dog into behaving and then have to carry treats around with you for the rest of the dogs life. And that you cannot use positive methods with a dog who isn't food motivated.
Ben that video is straight out of the 'Shadowboxer' training manual ...
for those who do not know ..
http://www.dogsey.com/lesley-bruce.htm
Excellent posts from people who don't blow their own trumpets but belonging to the very select few I would trust to care for my dogs.
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