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Call for ban on electric shock collars

...has received 236 comments (page 6)
Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,921
Female 
 
14-01-2015, 10:41 PM
So you tried gadgets. You cannot possibly say it was the e-collar or PTS because it's all you tried so hardly a last resort, more a first resort with is usually the case once the damned things start to be used
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
14-01-2015, 10:59 PM
I am starting to get very annoyed now. Of course we used a gadget ... Did you just read what I typed? The American veterinary society recommend the use of an e collar ... Nothing else, just that. Extreme measures for extreme condition. We had no time to fart about - our fault, but poor Ben was suffering for months I reckon before we found the problem and took him to the vet. No wonder he was so nasty about his tail being touched ... If you read up about p. Fistulas you will discover it is an agonising condition but often overlooked because of the hair in heavy coated dogs.

I am assuming that you would have just let the dog suffer then whilst the treatment was taking effect? Or not, because it wouldn't have worked unless you stopped the dog biting his bum ... And the only way to do this other than to have no sleep at all for weeks was to use an e collar.

Absolutely no choice whatsoever ... You cannot comment on ben's condition because you have never met him, but he was in a terrible state poor dog. The smell was horrendous. I feel guilty enough about my darling boy suffering so without being castigated by idiots who do not know what they are talking about.

Until someone can tell me how they would have saved poor Ben that I know would have worked, then I refuse to back down. The e collar saved my dogs life.
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Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,921
Female 
 
14-01-2015, 11:31 PM
You are totally wrong. This 'idiot' would not have let the dog suffer while the treatment was taking effect in any way shape or form.
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Azz
Administrator
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,574
Male 
 
14-01-2015, 11:38 PM
Azz - it is not an electric shock!!! There is no current involved - an e collar works by causing the muscles to contract, nothing to do with electricity!
Sorry Gnasher but that is a load of nonsense - if they didn't hurt they wouldn't work. They are electric shock collars - if they weren't, why would countries ban them.

If you have evidence to the contrary, please do feel free to post it.
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mjfromga
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,680
Female 
 
15-01-2015, 12:51 AM
There are different kinds but most do use a jolt of current to distract the dog or to enforce a behavior. But really if they are used as a last resort only, and used carefully, they can save a dogs life. If they, prongs, and other types of collars were banned here, so many dogs would lose their homes and die. If you want that instead of a prong or e collar on a dog from time to time, then like Gnasher said, you really do not care much about dogs. These tools really can mean life or death for many different reasons.

I dislike them, I'd avoid using them if at all possible, but I'm American and even thinking about removing these tools would cause so much loss of life. It's not worth it. Not all (by any means) homes that use these are bad homes for the dogs, I can't agree with that at all.
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lovemybull
Dogsey Senior
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 974
Female 
 
15-01-2015, 02:54 AM
And while I personally wouldn't use any of the above devices I agree that as long as they're used by an experienced trainer, that there are some dogs with behavior issues that cannot be solved any other way.

A dog like Callie for instance. He has shown definite human aggression in the past. Fortunately I'm physically stronger than average and have enough experience to handle him safely. But if he were say the size and power of the average Dogo and showing the same behavior, I would have had to take some drastic action there.

So yes I do understand their use in some situations.
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
15-01-2015, 07:00 AM
Bloody well said lovemybull. I totally agree - our Ben is a very good example of this. I am not going to go into all the details of Ben's training, because it has all been said before.

But to criticise me for using the Dogtra to save Ben's life is just way, way out of line. No-one, no-one is telling me what THEY would have done to watch over their dog 24/7 to stop this terrible pain that the dog must have been in. The ONLY effective treatment for Ben's perianal fistulas was to stop the insane biting - no medicine, no treatment, would have worked until we managed to achieve that ... words of our vet.

Chris: tell me what you would have done? All you do is bleat and whitter on about cruel I am using the Dogtra, and how you would have done it so differently.

Tell me therefore please in words of one syllable how you would have managed to go without sleep for days of end to watch over your dog to stop the pain and intense itching that fistulas cause. Read up on the internet about it, how agonising it is for the poor dog. I am feeling absolutely dreadful enough, without idiots who do not know what the hell they are talking about making me feel even worse. He must have been suffering for months, maybe longer, casting my mind back to how he went ballistic if we tried to groom his tail and rear end. It wasn't until the blood and terrible smell started that we realised this was not mites, or fleas, but something far more serious.

Azz: Go on the Dogtra website and you will get all the information you need. Or just google e collars if you don't want to look on the manufacturers' site of the best e collar, which is the Dogtra.

Everybody else who has supported me in recognition of the fact that I love my dog beyond belief and had no other practical or realistic choice, I thank you.

To the rest of you, until you provide me with an acceptable alternative to the action that we took, I think you should shut up and hope and pray that your dog would never be in a similar position to Ben but be forced to suffer because his or her owner was too close-minded to accept that they may just be being bigoted and should at least try something that they find very distasteful.
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Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,921
Female 
 
15-01-2015, 08:58 AM
You know, Gnasher, you follow the same pattern every time. First reasonable, then attack, then the poor me.

In simple words , as previously said, I would have to know the dog to suggest what to try. I told you what I would do with my dogs and what I believe (and in one case know) what would work.

Previously, for Bens other problems, you have said you have tried other things prior to resorting to the collar. This time, you said you went straight to the collar so it has now become a first resort as these things tend to do.
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Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
15-01-2015, 09:28 AM
Chris: OF COURSE!! I am only human ... if you prick me, shall I not bleed? I'm glad to hear that I am consistent.

Your statement in your second paragraph is brilliant:

"I would have to know the dog to suggest what to try ..."

EXACTLY my point. I know my dog, and have known him for nearly 4 years now. You have never even met my dog, you have absolutely no idea about him whatsoever, other than that which I have told you, and of course because I am such a horrible person you doubtless do not believe a word I say.

So don't try and avoid the subject ... here is a brief description of Ben - humour me, and believe every word I am saying:

Ben, 8 years old, a low % wolf x alaskan malamute x sibe. Son of Hal, our previous wolf x. Huge, weighing in at 45 kilos, incredibly strong both physically and mentally. A real handful. A Git with a capital G. But with huge potential. Extremely intelligent, loyal, aggressive towards other dogs, disobedient but very loving. Hypersensitive skin, very thick, dense heavy coat which was completely matted when we took him on. A nightmare to groom. A hyper-groomer, scratching with his very powerful claws - he caused a haematoma on his ear, which is now permanently floppy and regular and recurrent hot spots and wet eczema, treated successfully with scrubbing with iodine - ouch, but it works.

We come on to the perianal fistulas, which as you know cause intense pain, burning and unbearable irritation in the anus and tail area. Elizabethan collar and muzzle of various types and adaptations all fail to stop the dog eating his bottom away. As soon as we realise that this is not mites or fleas but perianal fistulas, dog is taken to vet who says that no treatment will do any good whatsoever until we stop the damage the dog is doing to himself. We take him home, put e collar on him and we watch him through the kitchen window, he jumps up on the garden table, whips round and starts scratching at his rear end and attacking it with the muzzle on his head. We give him a very low level stim with the e collar - he immediately stops and looks around to see where we are, he can't see us, we are hiding in the kitchen. He settles down again, he starts attacking himself again, we give him another very low level stim. Dog jumps down off the table and lets us know that he wants to come back in. We let him in, he jumps up on the sofa and lies down. We watch him throughout the day, he is still wearing muzzle and the e collar. We never catch him throughout that day attacking his bottom. We go to bed, we take off e collar, but leave muzzle on. Dog continues to wear muzzle night and day except for walks for a further week. All is well, he leaves his backside alone night and day. Bottom heals miraculously quickly now that dog has stopped the biting. Vet is now prepared to give medication, Metronidazole, treatment is followed, muzzle is now no longer needed, and all is now well. No more bottom biting.

How can this be bad Chris? Now tell me what YOU would have done differently, instead of just bleating on about how cruel I am.

You bet I went straight to the e collar - do I sound like I am stupid? The vet told us stop the biting otherwise I cannot treat him and he will have to be put down because he will be suffering so badly.

Until you can tell me what YOU would have done in these circumstances, I will not let up.

By the way, I found this on the American veterinary thingey site:

"At low levels, the term shock is hardly fitting to describe the effects produced by electronic training collars, since there is virtually no effect beyond a pulsing tingling or tickling sensation on the surface of the skin ... the word shock is loaded with biased connotations, images of convulsive spasms and burns, and implications associated with extreme physical pain, emotional trauma, physiological collapse, and laboratory abuses ... the stimulus or signal generated by most modern devices is highly controlled and presented to produce a specific set of behavioral and motivational responses to it." [1]

Some trainers who use shock collars will compare the sensation they deliver to the "static shock" that people sometimes get when reaching for a door knob or car door. This is not to imply that shock collars emit static electricity but rather to give the potential user an idea of what a shock collar feels like. It's often startling, sometimes painful, but has never been shown to cause physical injury".
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Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,921
Female 
 
15-01-2015, 10:10 AM
I have never said you are knowingly cruel, Gnasher. I do, however, think the tool is cruel.

You cannot, ever, know a dog without meeting and spending time with him/her. It is why you will see all the recommendations to go to a reputable behaviourist when aggression rears its head as it can do more harm than good to advise without knowing what type of character you are working with.

I've suggested distraction, no words etc. What type of distraction, how to train no means no depends on the dog.
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