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Bitkin
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14-04-2012, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by lozzibear View Post
I have heard this argument many times before, but I do not agree with it.

There are always dangers in life, with everything we do. Every time we step out of the door, there is a chance we could be injured or even killed. Heck, even in the house there are dangers. But we do not lock ourselves up, that is no quality of life at all. We do however, make decisions and weigh up the dangers of what we do (well, most people do).

It is the same as dogs, the risks are always there. On walks, treats/chews, toys etc, but you need to make an educated decision on what is a reasonable risk to take. I know anything could happen on a walk, but I still choose to walk my dog because otherwise, he would have a low quality life IMO. I know the risk is there, but given the number of dogs that are walked, and the frequency and the number of injuries that occur, I don't think the risk is too high.

I think the same goes for horses, they need to be out in a paddock, and have suitable exercise. I don't believe horses NEED to race, and I certainly don't believe they need to race in such a notoriously hard race. People do it for themselves, not for the horses.

I would never put an animal I loved in to something where the chances of serious injury and/or death were so high.
No, I could never put an animal that I loved into such danger either and I take your point about most horses needing nothing more than a nice paddock and plenty of exercise (and a farrier, and a hay merchant, and a vet and and and.........!!! Sorry, memories got the better of me then)

However, this thread is really about racehorses and they are not just horses, they are thoroughbreds aren't they, and the majority of them were bred purely for racing. Yes, the owners, grooms and all connections in the majority of cases love their horses - but they have them to race. When those horses retire is the time for the peaceful life in the paddock.

(Please give that gorgeous dog of yours my usual cuddle )
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Angie1966
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14-04-2012, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Bitkin View Post
Your boy is a credit to you.
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
He is stunning Angie, and you have obviously worked wonders with him.
Thankyou both very much. Maybe he's why I'm so passionate about horses being given every chance available. Many had written him off, if I had not taken him goodness knows where he would have ended up.
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lozzibear
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14-04-2012, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
Playing devils advocate here: is there really a huge difference? Humans are omnivores so can survive without eating meat, so how much difference is there between having an animal die so you can enjoy eating it's flesh, to having an animal die so you can enjoy placing a bet???

Either way the animal dies to provide emjoyment for human beings......
I wouldn't say that humans eating meat is classed as 'enjoyment'... yes, people 'enjoy' their food but it is more about survival. Generally, if I eat food for enjoyment it is chocolate or kettle chips I eat meat for the nutrition, although I do enjoy the taste, it isn't my primary motivation.

I'm not a vegetarian now, but I was for just over a year... and I hated it. I don't want to offend anyone who is a vegetarian, but for me, it just didn't feel natural. I felt run down, tired and just not good... The only way I did feel good was when I took supplements, which I did towards the end. It was then that I made the decision to go back to eating meat.

Oh, and I didn't go veggie because I didn't agree with eating animals... my issue was through how the animals are kept and killed. After spending time with my aunt, and her sheep (which are sent to slaughter) I realised that the keeping of the animals isn't actually bad, if you are careful where you buy your meat from. And thankfully, my mum buys the vast vast majority of our meat from a butcher who have their very own farm, a short distance away from the shop. So, I am happy enough that they have a good life before the 'end'.

As for horse racing, that isn't needed for anything other than the enjoyment of humans.
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lozzibear
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14-04-2012, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Bitkin View Post
However, this thread is really about racehorses and they are not just horses, they are thoroughbreds aren't they, and the majority of them were bred purely for racing. Yes, the owners, grooms and all connections in the majority of cases love their horses - but they have them to race. When those horses retire is the time for the peaceful life in the paddock.
I do agree, but is there really any need to put a horse into a race such as the grand national? With such a high fatality rate?

I do not have a major problem with 'general' racing, as in the races themselves (and I do know that horses can, and do, die in those races too)... I do have problems with some of the practices that go along with racing, such as the breeding and 'disposing' of horses who can no longer race.

Originally Posted by Bitkin View Post
(Please give that gorgeous dog of yours my usual cuddle )
I will He has gone on a weird rampage tonight, ripping up the majority of his toys...
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EmmiS
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14-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Massive fan of racing, but have found the grand national increasingly troubling over the last few years. As it stands, I will continue to watch and enjoy Aintree, but not the Grand National.

From what i've always been lead to believe, having spent most of my life following and involved with racing and point to pointing, both flat and the jumps, was that the best horse wins, with there being an element of risk, but for the most part this would not cause a problem (if you follow all of the daily meetings as i do, you'd realise how low the incident rate is in most other races), the national is a race where you have a 40/60 chance of completion.

One thing i found hard to take was this, i was at a flat race at Ascot (not the royal meeting, later in the season) and a brilliant racehorse called Rewilding suffered a freak accident in a BIG grade one. The winning jockey, who for the most part i don't like the attitude of, didn't celebrate when crossing the line, walked his horse into the enclosure, jumped strait off and went and offered his condolences to the connections of Rewilding. When interviewed he said he was happy with his horse, but that wasn't the point, and he wanted to offer his condolences to all connected, and all who were fond of 'wilding.' The winning horses trainer went and quickly grabbed some food and attended to Rewilding before talking to his jockey, and made sure he was calm, and eating when he was pts. Compare that with those who won the national today, i have few good words to say about the man who trained the winner, but it said it all that there were two horses dead and his first response is "That will shut Nicky [man who he had beaten in the trainers championship] up."

I think the following changes should be made, firstly, the national is one of a fair number of races run over national fences, horses should only take part if they have completed over the fences in a shorter race before. Horses that get loose going down to the start should be non-runnered regardless of the good health they appear to be in. Canal turn needs to be looked at angles need to be altered, beechers needs to be scrapped. After a horse has run 4.25 miles, whips should not be allowed to be used after the last, they do have some safety/steering purposes, but no need after the last. Finally they NEED to slow it down, they went off like Frankel in last years 2000 guineas, they should be going off like all the other races over marathon distances do, at a crawl. There are 2 ways of doing this, water the ground so it's a bog, potentially a cantering, rather than a standing start like ALL other jumps races have. and 10 less runners. There was a race on friday over the fences with 28, and it was a triumph, 2 unseated jockeys and one very soft fall which on another day the horse would have just pecked just got it's legs in a knot on landing. All the horses where fine and Always Waining won it for the third year in a row, and it was lovely.

I will continue to remain a massive fan of the racing game, however until some significant changes are made to the national i will not be supporting it. Keeping up the 'integrity' of a race can NEVER be as important as the welfare of those taking part. The outcry from some racing quarters when they levelled out some landings after the fences was appalling.

I think racing would benefit hugely if Cheltenham was moved and the Gold Cup would be run at half 3 on a saturday and made the feature race of the calendar. It's attracted some of the best horses of all time in Kauto Star, Best Mate, Exotic Dancer and Denman all in recent years, and is a test, cause the track is undulating, and it's a test because ALL the entries are SO good, not because half the field falls. (within that lies another problem that the national attracts failed-good horses rather than actually good horses, until Synch. no owner had put a gold cup horse in the national for a while, as its seen as 'risking' them...)

That's enough from me i think! Just thought someone who is very very very pro-racing and a racing insider's opinion would be good!
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abbie
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14-04-2012, 11:53 PM
I didn't watch the grand national. I didn't even know it was on today.

I have for many years, until recently, had horses and competed in showjumping and eventing with them. I lost one to a broken leg whilst in the field. I have no idea how he did it

I have also had dog with a broken leg. He was 11 weeks old and standing still on lead when he leapt towards a passing dog and fell off a step. This dog is now 2 years old and doing very well at agility.

I know there is a risk in everything we do, but it would not stop be doing it if me and more importantly my pets enjoyed it.

Very sad that horses have died. I would hope that in all sports injury and fatality statistics are looked into and changes made to improve where possible.
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EmmiS
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15-04-2012, 12:08 AM
Abbie, I know several horses who've broken legs, and even broken a neck in the field, I also know a 5 year old that had a heart attack in his stable one morning!

The difference is, in racing, you'll maybe get one unlucky fall or one false step that sadly the vets can't treat fairly rarely (nowhere near as animal aids racehorse website have you believe, i tried to get hold of them to get a few i knew where incorrect off and they failed to get back to me ), but it's not common, when year on year on year, 2 or 3 horses die in the same race, surely changes have to be made.
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lilypup
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15-04-2012, 12:19 AM
As with anything where the subject doesn't have a choice in the matter, justification i.e. Race horses love to race, is banded about. Horses are flight animals. Put them in a flight situation and they will run, jump and do anything to get away from perceived danger.

If horses love to jump and run so much, why are they kept in fields with fences they could jump at any moment. Because of course they love to jump don't they....
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Malka
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15-04-2012, 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by Luthien View Post
This is what annoys me the most.

Self righteous people being appalled about two animals dying, then going on to tuck into their Sunday lunch tomorrow.

I am very sad that the two lovely horses died today. I am also very sad that many other animals die every day to put food on your tables.

I would rather see 40 animals doing what they were bred to do, with an outside chance of dying, than 40 animals being bred to sit in a field then be eaten.
You say "your" tables - do I take it that you are a vegetarian/vegan so do not have meat on your own table?

If so, do your dogs eat any animal products or are they fed a vegetarian/vegan diet as well?
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Luthien
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15-04-2012, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Malka View Post
You say "your" tables - do I take it that you are a vegetarian/vegan so do not have meat on your own table?

If so, do your dogs eat any animal products or are they fed a vegetarian/vegan diet as well?
Yes, I'm a vegetarian. I did used to enjoy eating meat, but did not feel that my enjoyment was worth the deliberate killing of animals. (And no, meat is not necessary, I've managed fine without it for 24 years!)

I do not push my views onto my animals though, who I'm sure would argue that is IS worth it, so they are certainly not vegetarians!
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