Well I refer back to my previous post; we cannot determine the genetics of this dog (but we can have a guess) but we do know the breed and its traits and we do know that it was raised in a somewhat less than enriched environment.

We cannot come to any scientific evidence based conclusion but it is a probability that this dog was raised in conditions which may have taught the dog that being dog aggressive was the only way to succeed.

Eg

It was probably noisy in the kennel, and we know a lot of collies are very sound sensitive; therefore the noise in and of itself may have stressed the dog severely. We do not know.

It may have had to share a kennel and thus been forced to resource guard locations. We do not know.

It may have had to share food and thus been forced to resource guard food. We do not know.

In other words this dog may have had to compete for everything attention, silence, bed, room, food, bitches etc so has learned that if you do not fight for it, you will go without.

I would say that it is extremely unlikely that this dog will ever be able to be desensitised and counter conditioned to other dogs enough that it will ever lose the “fight first ask questions later” attitude. Because this strategy has worked (we know that as he is still alive) and been reinforced over a very long period of time.

What we cannot know is if there was any genetic component to this behaviour.

However, harking back to my previous post, I would say that ANY dog raised in this environment will have two options, if it does not die than it will shut down completely or become dog aggressive.

So in conclusion and on the balance of probabilities I would say that it is most LIKELY that this dog is the way it is due to 18 months in an unsuitable and stressful environment.

Dogs are the “animal” that he has had not only the MOST exposure to, but, unlike cats, children and people, will probably been the ONLY species that he has had to compete with for resources.

Just my personal view, I may be talking out of my backside!

Works for me! that was what I said to her too... but less umm educated LOL

She countered with the other BC's from this puppy mill situation aren't DA, She's met a few of them... and they're perfectly fine, so Buddy musta been born DA.

I told her that dogs in a puppy mill dont all have the same experiences, he may have been kennelled with an aggressive dog, or next to a dog that tried to get him through the barriers... he may have been attacked by a bitch that wasn't ready for him, really, anything could have happened to him... besides you really dont know what went on there, and that her dog is an extremely bad example of her theory. she needs to provide examples of puppies that have had everything right, that have had NO BAD experiences AT ALL, that are not born shy, nervous or with a strobg prey drive. that the puppy should be of a breed not previously used for fighting... and the puppy needs to be DA right from the start...

She says dogs that are born DA develop it at 6-9 months old... I wonder if she knows that's when fear stages happen but she is adament that her dog doesn't go after other dogs due to fear...

The other thing she doesn't believe is that some dogs dont become DA until maturity...

Yet I've seen it a few times... I know of one that never attacked a dog until the age of 5, 1 year after his owners started fostering... then he attacked a dog, and it's escalated alarmingly. now he'll atack every dog that comes into their house, except their other dog.

I'm sick of debating the same points, and her not reading what I'm writing, just picking up a few points out of context and trashing them.

And she said she was on a DA forum and they all believe it too... so I asked her to provide me the link, as I think it would be helpful to me with Oliver....

She has not.

But you've given me some great stuff, and it basically follows what I said, though I wonder what others can argue to this...

I really love a good debate!!!

You are welcome, I love a good debate too!

Well, in this instance, I cant debate with you... we agree... so some more people please! LOL

I forgot to say I am intrigued to hear that there is a "DA forum"?

Yeah, she said she was on 2... I want the link! might have some good information, but I'm thinking I'm going to google it... see what I can come up with!

Interesting topic, ive heard people say "it was in the dog to be that way" or generalising "the males have it in them to be that way, ive known more than one like that".

OK, I went through 19 pages of Google, and all I found was one that's run by an Adam Katz, and an Ames... that was disaggreeing with positive methods... no thanks.

so either the poster was lying (wich would suck, as I actually like her for the most part) or it's not a common forum, and is alot further back than I'm willing to weed through...

a yes, as there are only 2 genders, it's likely they have known more than one male like that LOL

But I would think that would fall into the prone to due to breed, socialization, bloodlines, or training, and would require a trigger, for the most part...

Would you consider that thousands of dogs are just born DA? with no other factors involved?

I'm really not inclined to believe that, honestly.

When Cherry's dog aggression first materialised a Labrador owner I met on a walk said she was born like that and it was a mental state and I couldn't do anything to change it

Another dog owner at work said it was always the owner's fault when dogs were aggressive.

Cherry was ok in her new home with me for the 1st month we had her then she changed and went after another dog on the heath when my husband was walking her off-lead. She had been fine before this and he was really upset and scared to see her behave like this. I was annoyed with my husband for walking both dogs off-lead when I was not with him-he wasn't a doggy person so I am not sure of the exact situation but it didn't sound like the other dog started it and it was on a lead.

Got advice from our trainer to shake her by the scruff of the neck when she got reactive to other dogs which I did
She got worse and was only when I started clicker training using the "watch me" command that she began to improve.
She is fine 90% of the time now and has doggy "friends" whoch I never thought possible. She is still kept leashed as I can't trust her with large unknown dogs and she is not good at reading their signals as she is poorly sighted.

I think something happened to make her change at nearly 3 years old as she wasn't supposed to be aggressive before then according to her previous owners. The time she changed she had just been to a groomers in Norwich where the groomer let about 12 dogs run about together inbetween grooming and I wonder if she got bullied but then if this happened to Parker it wouldn't change his temperament as he has been attacked by another dog and is still very sociable (fortunately!). I don't know the answer.