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Borderdawn
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12-09-2012, 08:02 AM
Nooo Tarimoor they dont do that do they?

Its a really good article, thank you for copying it to here.

This video was taken a couple nights ago, 4.14 am outside my house. The window had been closed about an hour before in an attempt to shut the damn noise out. This goes on almost every single night for hours on end. I live in a drive of 9 houses, these animals are a bloody nuisance in every way. I do not (nor my neighbours) appreciate this row when we have to get up each day to go to work. Me 5.20 am every morning and Im sick of it as I know others are. These Foxes are FED by idiots who think they are cute, but strangely two such idiots dont think that right now because yes, they would really like to sleep once in a while too! Steps are now being taken to remove them, the Foxes that is!

Its black cos it was dark!

http://youtu.be/CyNfZEMdeNU
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Gnasher
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12-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Nooo Tarimoor they dont do that do they?

Its a really good article, thank you for copying it to here.

This video was taken a couple nights ago, 4.14 am outside my house. The window had been closed about an hour before in an attempt to shut the damn noise out. This goes on almost every single night for hours on end. I live in a drive of 9 houses, these animals are a bloody nuisance in every way. I do not (nor my neighbours) appreciate this row when we have to get up each day to go to work. Me 5.20 am every morning and Im sick of it as I know others are. These Foxes are FED by idiots who think they are cute, but strangely two such idiots dont think that right now because yes, they would really like to sleep once in a while too! Steps are now being taken to remove them, the Foxes that is!

Its black cos it was dark!

http://youtu.be/CyNfZEMdeNU
Another example of do-gooder humans doing anything but! I personally love to hear truly wild foxes in the fields right outside our bedroom window, but a bun fight in my back garden would be something different!
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x-clo-x
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12-09-2012, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Nooo Tarimoor they dont do that do they?

Its a really good article, thank you for copying it to here.

This video was taken a couple nights ago, 4.14 am outside my house. The window had been closed about an hour before in an attempt to shut the damn noise out. This goes on almost every single night for hours on end. I live in a drive of 9 houses, these animals are a bloody nuisance in every way. I do not (nor my neighbours) appreciate this row when we have to get up each day to go to work. Me 5.20 am every morning and Im sick of it as I know others are. These Foxes are FED by idiots who think they are cute, but strangely two such idiots dont think that right now because yes, they would really like to sleep once in a while too! Steps are now being taken to remove them, the Foxes that is!

Its black cos it was dark!

http://youtu.be/CyNfZEMdeNU
oops, just played that video and the dogs went mad, they certainly know what that noise is
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Gnasher
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12-09-2012, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tarimoor View Post
Apologies as the quote hasn't picked up all of your responses so I'm scrolling down to respond.

What arrogance? We are the prime species in the world, is it arrogance to ensure the survival of all species by culling a few? In our past arrogance we chose to unbalance eco systems and drive some species to the edge of existence simply for the fun of shooting every living thing. It is not arrogance to evolve and learn that all things have a place in balance with each other, and where we have created imbalance to restore it, to think otherwise is simply naieve, wild animals don't live and let live, a fox won't make the conscious decision to starve itself to death because they are too numerous as a species overall. And let's not also miss the point that should a fox be predated on by another animal, and it's unlikely another predator would eat a fox but would kill it because it's competition, no-one would have a problem, but to cull fox numbers to ensure they remain in balance with their surroundings is somehow the devil's work.

I disagree ... we are indeed the most intelligent species on earth, but due to our arrogance we have managed to screw up most less intelligent species. A short term, quick and easy solution such as culling can never in most cases work ... simply because it would be impossible to cull every single animal. Having caused the problem in the first place, then the intelligent thing that the most intelligent species on earth should do is to come up with an intelligent solution.

I haven't said you specifically are a bunny hugger, but the art of bunny hugging is most definitely alive and well, with people allowing their emotions and perceived feelings about fluffy animals to intervene with common sense, even to the point where they will contradict good conservation simply to push for the right of all cute and fluffy animals to live.

I agree entirely with this paragraph.

You haven't actually answered how the life of the fox has changed since the hunting ban was put in place, which is a ridiculous piece of unenforceable legislation, where thousands of pounds have been wasted. You've simply put a lot of things about how you don't like foxhunting with hounds in your area. I'm not actually for or against hunting but the idea that it's made a change in the quality of life foxes have overall is simply foundless. Foxes still live and die with much of their lives spent evading what they perceive as a threat. In other words they still live with fear as part of their life, as all truly wild animals do, it's a healthy part of their flight mechanism.

I am anti fox hunting, but I totally agree that the partial ban was ludicrous and unenforceable. I am anti fox hunting mainly because of the unlevel playing field - the hunt round us certainly used to indulge in sending hunt servants very early in the morning round the fields over which they were going to hunt across to look for and block up all holes down which the foxes could go to earth down. I know this because I caught them red-handed. IF the playing field could be levelled and there was absolutely no more stopping up of badger setts and other suitable holes, then I would be happier to consider some sort of return to fox hunting proper

At least we agree on something though, I can't remember which magazine this article is from but makes for interesting reading:



I haven't clicked on these 2 links yet, but I will and comment!!
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Borderdawn
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12-09-2012, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by x-clo-x View Post
oops, just played that video and the dogs went mad, they certainly know what that noise is
Yes so do mine!
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Borderdawn
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12-09-2012, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Another example of do-gooder humans doing anything but! I personally love to hear truly wild foxes in the fields right outside our bedroom window, but a bun fight in my back garden would be something different!
I have absolutely objection to hearing Foxes either, but not in my front garden every night in an urban area. I took another video of them jumping on and off next doors car but it was just too dark to make out. The picture I showed earlier in this thread is one of the Foxes making the noise.
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Tarimoor
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12-09-2012, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I haven't clicked on these 2 links yet, but I will and comment!!
So you admit we've created imbalance, but are not in favour of maintaining a healthier balance so that other species can thrive alongside a predator which is too successful for it's own good in some areas, and which is being released into the wild to fend for itself from a different environment, by people who think it's best to save every animal that walks this earth and has fur.

You still haven't answered how the hunting ban has actually impacted on the lives of foxes, whether or not you agree with the way they were hunted is irrelevant, the ban was brought about because (supposedly) hunting animals with dogs brings about undue stress. The simple fact is all wild animals feel stress, the animals your dogs kill regardless of whether they eat them, will feel stress, and I might add what you are allowing them to do is illegal, unless you carry a firearm to ensure if your dog doesn't make a clean kill for whatever reason, you will ensure the animal dies as quickly as possible.
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Gnasher
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12-09-2012, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Tarimoor View Post
So you admit we've created imbalance, but are not in favour of maintaining a healthier balance so that other species can thrive alongside a predator which is too successful for it's own good in some areas, and which is being released into the wild to fend for itself from a different environment, by people who think it's best to save every animal that walks this earth and has fur.

You still haven't answered how the hunting ban has actually impacted on the lives of foxes, whether or not you agree with the way they were hunted is irrelevant, the ban was brought about because (supposedly) hunting animals with dogs brings about undue stress. The simple fact is all wild animals feel stress, the animals your dogs kill regardless of whether they eat them, will feel stress, and I might add what you are allowing them to do is illegal, unless you carry a firearm to ensure if your dog doesn't make a clean kill for whatever reason, you will ensure the animal dies as quickly as possible.
Of course!! That's precisely why I describe my own race as arrogant!! Once the genie has been let out of the bottle it is impossible to get him back in again. What I said and I will say again is that it is up to us to use our nouses to devise a kind way to control foxes, a way that won't harm any other species. I am not an expert, but I am thinking along the lines of birth control.

I think the ludicrous partial hunting ban that we have at the moment has done nothing towards controlling the foxes, and probably worsened their plight. Although round here we have a very healthy population, I understand that in some parts there are many old and very mangey foxes who would in the past have been killed by the hunt, but are now living a horrible life of misery and torment. This is not good. Which is why I said that were the disgusting act of stopping up setts, earths etc. to become illegal and was enforceable, I would be far less anti hunting than I am at the moment. With a level playing field, the old, sick and mangey would not be able to escape hounds, but would be killed and put out of their misery, leaving the healthier stock to escape to live another day. Don't even get me started on cubbing, I think that is just plain cruel, and always have done, even when I used to go hunting myself. I never ever went cubbing.

As for my dogs chasing, catching, killing and eating wildlife such as rabbits, the local farmers are always delighted that dogs should do precisely this and as we live in the middle of nowhere and walk the dogs in the middle of nowhere, the fact that we are breaking the law really holds no significance. My greatest concern would be that the prey did not suffer.
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Tarimoor
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12-09-2012, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Of course!! That's precisely why I describe my own race as arrogant!! Once the genie has been let out of the bottle it is impossible to get him back in again. What I said and I will say again is that it is up to us to use our nouses to devise a kind way to control foxes, a way that won't harm any other species. I am not an expert, but I am thinking along the lines of birth control.

I think the ludicrous partial hunting ban that we have at the moment has done nothing towards controlling the foxes, and probably worsened their plight. Although round here we have a very healthy population, I understand that in some parts there are many old and very mangey foxes who would in the past have been killed by the hunt, but are now living a horrible life of misery and torment. This is not good. Which is why I said that were the disgusting act of stopping up setts, earths etc. to become illegal and was enforceable, I would be far less anti hunting than I am at the moment. With a level playing field, the old, sick and mangey would not be able to escape hounds, but would be killed and put out of their misery, leaving the healthier stock to escape to live another day. Don't even get me started on cubbing, I think that is just plain cruel, and always have done, even when I used to go hunting myself. I never ever went cubbing.

As for my dogs chasing, catching, killing and eating wildlife such as rabbits, the local farmers are always delighted that dogs should do precisely this and as we live in the middle of nowhere and walk the dogs in the middle of nowhere, the fact that we are breaking the law really holds no significance. My greatest concern would be that the prey did not suffer.
I'd like to see you fit a condom on a fox!

Joking aside, population control has been discussed with other species, it's not yet an efficient method of control, so do you propose to allow fox numbers to spiral out of control whilst we develop an efficient method of birth control. Also, being someone who won't take birth control because of the alterations it creates to my physiology, are you willing to accept changing the physiology of wild animals to prevent numbers being controlled by culling? I prefer culling tbh, I don't like the idea of messing around with hormones etc.

So the hunting ban has not had any effect really, glad we both agree on that.

So it's ok for you to flout the law, but should anyone be guilty in your view of hunting with dogs illegally, you would prefer them to be prosecuted? Whether the local farmers agree with you is irrelevant to the fact that you are breaking the law, many hunts had permissions to go across land, not all, but a lot of them. But it's still illegal for them now to hunt with dogs, regardless of whether a farmer agrees with fox hunting with hounds, and would allow them to do so. Edited to add the point that you approve of the stress caused to animals when your dogs hunt them, but disapprove of the stress caused to foxes when hounds hunt them, how is that different? To the animal that is?
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Helen
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12-09-2012, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
As for my dogs chasing, catching, killing and eating wildlife such as rabbits, the local farmers are always delighted that dogs should do precisely this and as we live in the middle of nowhere and walk the dogs in the middle of nowhere, the fact that we are breaking the law really holds no significance. My greatest concern would be that the prey did not suffer.
I find this very hypocritical, if I am reading it correctly. You have a problem with controlling foxes, but you "control" rabbits?

Helen
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