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Willow
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18-07-2005, 12:00 PM

Gundog Stuff ...

I hope this is allowed in here... if not then my sincere apologies !

Just wanted to share my experience from yesterday, we did our first working test (for those of you who dont know, working tests are purely on dummies there's no birds killed in one of these), and just short of my worst nightmare (not getting ANY retrieves) we only got 1 out of 8 !

My husband was with me and we've got it all on camera, I just can't figure out what went wrong, I did a few retrieves with the dog in the morning and he was great ! My only thoughts are that it was so hot yesterday ( he did go and lay down when he was meant to be on a retrieve which is very unlike him, he's usually a very very keen worker) that he was possibley a bit dehydrated, he had water available all day though, and was so hot his mind wasn't really on the job, I know that from the first retrieve he fell and that may have given his confidence a bit of knock. I did learn from yesterday though that I have a much more sensitive dog than I originally thought I did.

But despite it all, I'm NOT giving it up and will perservere (sp?) I love my dog to bits and always shall

If anyone is interested I can put some pics up of him doing some retrieves from training

Just wanted to have a bit of a vent and see if anyone can offer some advice

Willow x
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amts
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19-07-2005, 10:15 AM
Hi Willow :smt039

Our first retrieving thread *Are we allowed yet*

I´m sorry to hear your first working test didnt went well
Dont lgive up hope, I´m sure you´ll do better next time. The tests are....test and are very valuable in seing just how far we are and what needs more work

Its hard to say what went wrong really.
How old is your dog?
Was the area in the working tests something you are used to (woods, field,...)?
How was the level of difficulties compared to what you have been training?
Could be the weather - but shouldnt for 8 dummies - have you trained in all weather? How did he seems when waiting your turn?
Has your dog show similar behavior during training (lying down?) and how did you correct if so? - and how did you correct it this time?
What was the dummies? Was they similar to those he knows?
Were you dead nervous? Have you tried tests before?

I wondered a bit why you "tested" your dog in the morning before a test?
I assume you have been training this for quite some time and knew the weather might have an influence? I prefer not to train, sometimes even for a couple of days, before working. It keeps them energetic and eager to get out there and get going.

What happend when he fell?


I would love to see pics and hear more about the test
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Willow
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19-07-2005, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by amts
Hi Willow :smt039

Our first retrieving thread *Are we allowed yet*
I hope so we arent doing any hunting !


Originally Posted by amts

Its hard to say what went wrong really.
How old is your dog?
Was the area in the working tests something you are used to (woods, field,...)?
How was the level of difficulties compared to what you have been training?
Could be the weather - but shouldnt for 8 dummies - have you trained in all weather? How did he seems when waiting your turn?
Has your dog show similar behavior during training (lying down?) and how did you correct if so? - and how did you correct it this time?
What was the dummies? Was they similar to those he knows?
Were you dead nervous? Have you tried tests before?

I wondered a bit why you "tested" your dog in the morning before a test?
I assume you have been training this for quite some time and knew the weather might have an influence? I prefer not to train, sometimes even for a couple of days, before working. It keeps them energetic and eager to get out there and get going.

What happend when he fell?


I would love to see pics and hear more about the test
Well he's 3.5 and I didnt start training until about a year or more ago, although last year due to other circumstances there was a long break in training.

I live in a forest and to be honest I dont have much access to fields, there are some behind me but they're are full of horrible prickley weeds so I dont take the dogs in there. All the tests were done on very steep hillsides, I dont usually train on hills, I normally do things on the flat (Big mistake that I've now learnt from ! )

Difficulty between what I normally train and what was in the test was quite different although it was a n/handler and n/dog quite a lot of comments were made later about how they would have expected the standard of that test in a Open AV The distance of the retrieves was considerably more than we train. (Big mistake number two!)

When waiting between turns on training day's he's usually very keen, so keen sometimes he squeaks but during this test he was only lifting his ears every so often as he was panting so hard and flopping down at every opportunity he got, on training days, he never lies down, he's always keen to get going and do another retrieve ! Because it was so hot this time, I let him get his energy back between tests, I dont normally train in the heat so that would have been a factor I think.

The dummies are the same as he uses, and he's never been a fussy retriever as during training days we all use everyone else's dummies to help the other dogs and to stop any favoritisim between dummies.

Nevousness .... I was dead frightened !! Every test as I walked up my legs felt like they were going to give under me. My trainer was there as well that day and we were running in the same test, she was great and gave me loads of support on the day. One of the judges had said to me and other people told me I look very nervous I guess I'm my own worst enemy.

One thing that was said to me and did make sense by my trainer was that if I loose confidence in him (which I did do on the second retrieve as it was a blind and he didnt look confident running out) then he'll loose confidence in me and it becomes a vicious circle.

I gave him a few retrieves (3 marked) in the morning of the test not knowing how hot it would be and just to set him up on the day. I know next time that I wont do that.

When he fell, it was coming back from the first retrieve as it was a very step uneven slop and he tripped and slapped his jaw on the ground. He didnt drop it, but it made me think he may have hurt his jaw ? I had a look straight away and in his mouth in case his tongue got caught up anywhere but there wasnt any and at lunch he happily picked up a dummy at my feet and gave it to me.

I would love to hear of some other excercises that you do when training as I've tried a few out and some people do what I could call a triangle approach when teaching marks and retrieves I cant remember for the life of me how they do it ? Does that make any sense to you ? If not then I think I've just lost the plot

Sorry for the long post, but this is a big interest for me and I love doing/talking about gundog work so would be greatly interested in anything anyone would have to say or offer advice / training wise

Will get some pics of the camera tonight and put them on when I can, have you got any retrieving pics ? Would love to see them

Willow x
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amts
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19-07-2005, 12:45 PM
Hi again Willow. Not deleted yet, so maybe we are allowed :smt017

I´ll try replying the best I can but might need you to explain further as my (old) dictionary doesnt seem to contain training retrievers

You say he´s 3,5 which is a great age. The amount of training he has been giving only you can can tell really. Do you go to classes? Work with others or do it single handed?

The varios areas are so important and a lot of (mainly young) dogs will react of the change when going from field to woods, high grass to short grass, etc.
The more you can get him used to and confident on the better.
His work, speed, confidence and trust must be the same no matter where you tell him to work really.
Also the distractions varies from a plain field to a wodded area as you know.

It seems you know some of the mistakes being made so no need for further comment there. Just think of it as a test showing you where you need to work harder before next time Dont give up. It is really fun and all you put into your dog will pay off

The nervousness I know myself. I´m so bad at excams, tests, whatever. My face turns red and my legs shake like was I dancing
I´ve found out that once its going down, I´m able to shut out all others and only focus on my dog. Not allways a good thing as I tend to block instructions aswell Let me know when you have found a way to deal with it. I would certainly like to know

I was wondering by your reply, how much you have been training blind retrieves? Its true your dog will loose confindence in you if you seem to have given up, but does he know and understand the concept of a blind retrieve?
How far away was it? How did you approach it? Did you verbally help him after sending? Did you pick up his signals for help or did you just get frustrated? How confident is he normally in you?

I would love to hear of some other excercises that you do when training as I've tried a few out and some people do what I could call a triangle approach when teaching marks and retrieves I cant remember for the life of me how they do it ? Does that make any sense to you ? If not then I think I've just lost the plot
Not sure what you mean by triangle :smt017
You can teach him the signs for direction on a blind retrieve by doing the "clock" (Out, left, right, back) but why a triangle? That would be missing out on one of the directions.... Unless you stop him on his way out and do the back there?
Can you explain so a blond dane gets it?

Remember theres a big diff from a mark, to a blind retrieve. Very big.
And the ways to train them are also diff.
Maybe we should start up a thread or two talking about the varios ways and
how to train them?

And I´m looking forward to see pics
And yes, I have tons of pics, videos, drawing etc.
Ask Gordon Lover and J and they´ll
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Willow
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19-07-2005, 06:45 PM
Hi again amts !

I read your post and have been racking my brains for the rest of the afternoon to think how I taught him the blind retrieve intially, and I've forgotten !

Orginally I did working trials training and he was taught a send away command (run out in a straight line towards something and stop on a whistle) and I think I just added a dummy to it to encourage him to hunt out whilst he was out, I dont do WT anymore so I think I did it that way. Since then though I usually place a dummy out on a track if were out on a walk (he doesnt see it) and walk on anywhere upto 50-60 paces and then send him out as a blind retrieve and he'll go out like a bullet normally and find it no problem. If you have any other suggestions then I'd be really grateful ! How did you originally teach the blind retrieve ?

When I initially taught him I did a bit myself (where I could) from books and then I joined classes, these were infrequent though and sometimes were every fortnight then dropped to every month. Since Sunday I've joined up to two other training clubs

The triangle I was talking about I can't quite get my head round, it's not to do with the clock excercise (have done that a few times with him). When I think about it some more I'll write it down so you can understand, but at the moment I'm still trying to remember how it's down, I get shown it and it makes sense then I forget a week later and can't remember for the life of me how it's done !

I'd love to see a thread started up about the different techniques for training a blind and mark, I'll need to do some more memory work with him I think as he didnt mark them that well. I will start using some more hills in my training as well. Since Sunday though I wanted to give him a few days off and will go and do some training with him tmw afternoon I think.

What sort of excersizes do you do when your doing a 'normal' training session ? Would love to know

I'll put the tape on later and take some stills from it and put them up later if I can, will take the camera out tmw as well and get some of him retrieving as well

I hope this turns into a great training post !

Willow x
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amts
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20-07-2005, 06:27 AM
Morning Willow :smt039

Have thought about "the triangle" and with some help from others, I think its something like this:

..............X................................... ......X
............(dummy)............................(du mmy)




....................................Y
..............................(handler)

It´s almost like a triplemark on trials, but to teach the dog marks and out this way, may not IMO be the best way
You have the risk that your dog wont stay focus on direction and the possibility it will swap => conflict

I try to make the exercise as simple as possible for the dog and make the chance of succes as big as possible.
Training the out command, I find a place with a "wall" on one side - like a natural fence, trees, bushes, whatever that will support my dog in running straight forward and minimize the risk of the dog running some where else than straight out.
*damn hard to explain both in writing and in english*

XXXXX trees, bushes, lake,whatever XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

(handler) ----------------------------------------------------(dummy)

(Hope that helps?)

I train the command maybe 50-100-200 times where it can see the placed dummy. Until I´m absolutly sure it knows what "out" means and will run a straight line.
I then place the dummy (same place) where my dog hasnt seen me do that and start over. Now it has to trust me, but memory tells it that the dummy is out there.

After that I move on to "left", "right" and "back" (this could be a long thread )

I allways try to make the training as easy, logical and succesful for the both of us. Then it stays fun and we avoid many conflitcs, not to mention my dog trusts me - it has learnt when I say the dummy is there, it is

These days my training is about trying to calm Ally a bit down. She is a very high speeded dog and I love that, but she needs to learn that we will make it even if it isnt done with 200 mph

I train the "stop" whistle a lot. She knows what it means and she will stop, but in Ally´s world, its more than enough to just stop and look at me, but I want her on her bum and get some calmness on her before moving on.
So I take her varios places and let her loose. I then let her do what she wants and suddenly whistles her down. If done right (first time) she gets a dummy to retrieve. No way´s better to praise her

I tried making you a small video of her doing a small retrieve in the woods yesterday. Its a bit hard to both tape her and signal what to do so I only got this one and it isnt that great. But it´ll show you a high geared Ally
I will try and see if I can get someone to help me make some videos that will show you a bit more

http://www.zippyvideos.com/175387371659975.html
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Willow
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20-07-2005, 04:03 PM
Hi Again !

Got the afternoon off to go look at some cars, but as my luck would have it (I'm having a bad week) all 3 sold either this morning or late last night

Anyway it gives me time to write a reply and go out and do some training so not all bad !

The triangle that you described was very very similar to what I had in mind, and very well described in a post ! I like the way you did the 'graphics' !

I used to do a lot of training blinds using the edge of a fence or hedge and will do it again tonight with him, but will include some marks as well. Because of how bad we did on Sunday I'm going right back to the basics with him, so he becomes confident again and I'll only stick to simple excercises like you said that you use to set them up for success, I have a very bad habit of not quiting while I'm ahead and have ended up confusing my husband (he comes and helps, he's a great dummy thrower !) and as he says 'If iI'm confusing him(my husband), then I should think how the poor dog is doing as the dog doesnt speak the same language as me !' <--- I'll go into what I did in another post, as it's a going to be a long story !..

I can see this being a long thread !

So I think I shall have to re-examine some of the training excercises I do with him, so I can make it easier and more fun.

I do the same as you though for a stop, I'll let him run around and do his normal thing on a walk and blow the whistle he'll stop and get a retrieve as like your Lab there's no better praise for him than a retrieve, but if he's on a retrieve and I stop him, if he's winded it, he'll ignore me and carry on to getting the dummy. So if I was ever in a test again and heading for the wrong dummy , then he'd ignore me. I did this as a training excercise once and got Mel (OH) too throw two dummies out (this was about 6 months ago) the dog had been doing quite well that week on left and rights, and so I sent him for the left one and had Mel stand close to the right one ready to snatch it up in case the dog decided he'd retrieve the right one instead. Which he did try to do, looking back though I think I was doing to much too soon with him.

I feel all depressed now at the thought of all the mistakes I've done with him ...... oh well.

Speak to you tmw hopefully

x

PS Am loading your video now, so I can watch it again, I loved it ! Ally looks very happy ! I did it quite quickly at work, but I have broadband there so it was much quicker, at home I only have dialup so it's taking a little while
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amts
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20-07-2005, 04:34 PM
Logged on to see if you had replied - this is getting addictive isnt it

Cant help but comment what you wrote here:
the dog had been doing quite well that week on left and rights
Just my opinion, one week is nothing.... In deffense of your dog, he might have gotten the idea, but no way he´s fully confident in an exercise by one week

The picking up a dummy before he gets it when its wrong is good, but in theory it shouldnt come to him running for the wrong dummy.
Remember they are more likely to go for the last marked - if you want him to go for the first, try "overdo" the exercise. Erm... need to explain I know... Try very very clearly to point out excatly the direction he should be headed with your whole body (armes, legs and body itself).
Does he make the turn for the wrong, whistle him down and either call him back or point out the direction. Support him verbally til he gets it. But I must say, better to wait with he distractions til he fully gets the idea and knows it in his sleep


And dont feel depressed. We all have these up and downs. Thats just how it is to train a dog - just last week I could have screamed at my very anoying and suddenly deaf dog But a days break and me calming down and we´re back on track now.
And so will you be. Just remember to have fun and the three T´s (Thing Takes Time). Course they do... how annoying that might be
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Willow
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20-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Still here !

Havent gone out as I'm waiting for Mel to come back then we will go out to the forest I think.

You were right in replying to that, after a week, it takes much more time for it to sink in their heads, I had done directions with him before and he's been ok, just that week I thought 'We'll go up a level' but it was obviously too soon.

So back to the drawing board and doing ONLY simple easy things

Thanks for all the replies, yes it is getting addictive !

x
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amts
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20-07-2005, 05:04 PM
Came to think, have you made a schedule or something like that for your training? You´re planning on more trials right?
It has worked for me in the past to write down what I want to train for a certain period of time and how it went.

When I after that moved forward and something fails, I can go back and see where I chose the easy way out *course i did that too with some thing you know*

Just a thought
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