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ClaireandDaisy
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31-05-2011, 07:03 PM
Logically speaking - if a dog was born dog aggressive he would attack his littermates and his dam. So his chances of survival would be minimal.
Many dogs can of course be born with certain aptitudes or characteristics or particular genetic makeup that might lead him, in certain circumstances, to become aggressive. But then, temperament and character can be shaped. Fearful dogs can be helped to gain confidence. Boisterous dogs can be taught control.
This sounds like a bit of an excuse to me. Sort of - `give a dog a bad name then hang him` attitude.
I prefer to use the term Reactive anyway. True aggression (for no reason) is incredibly rare. Most aggression is a reaction to a situation.
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inkliveeva
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01-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Logically speaking - if a dog was born dog aggressive he would attack his littermates and his dam. So his chances of survival would be minimal.
Many dogs can of course be born with certain aptitudes or characteristics or particular genetic makeup that might lead him, in certain circumstances, to become aggressive. But then, temperament and character can be shaped. Fearful dogs can be helped to gain confidence. Boisterous dogs can be taught control.
This sounds like a bit of an excuse to me. Sort of - `give a dog a bad name then hang him` attitude.
I prefer to use the term Reactive anyway. True aggression (for no reason) is incredibly rare. Most aggression is a reaction to a situation.
I like your logic here, well said xx
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Wysiwyg
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01-06-2011, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Sara'n'Scout View Post
Yeah, she said she was on 2... I want the link! might have some good information, but I'm thinking I'm going to google it... see what I can come up with!
Did she mean public or private forum?
I am not aware of any public ones, but there are some Yahoo groups that you can join. I was a member of one for a time, I cannot recall if these are for trainers/behaviourists only, but I dont think so, I think an interest in dog behaviour or a problem dog fulfils joining criteria.

As for DA dogs being born like it, I like the saying "the genetics loads the gun, the environment pulls the trigger".

The controversial Patrick Byrnes I think his name is, did quite a good article on the pit bull for Dogs Today a while back. Interesting (I wish my memory was better - I often read things, think "god that's amazing, I will store that away" and then a few months later, it's gone ).

Wys
x
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SarahJade
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01-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
As for DA dogs being born like it, I like the saying "the genetics loads the gun, the environment pulls the trigger".
I love that, and may, with your permission, have to pinch it. I always say that your genes state what range you can be in, but your environment gives you what you actually are. So in my theory I suppose some dogs could never get as DA as others, and some cannot become as dog friendly as others, which to me sounds like a good theory.

I do believe that most 'DA' is just a reaction to fear. I believe this in my own dog. So I also prefer the term dog reactive but I suppose if the outcome is the same then most people don't see a need for a different term, which I can understand.
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Dobermann
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01-06-2011, 04:14 PM
I agree with yourself and the others so cant really add much other than it is a lot easier to blame the dog and of course in a persons mind, if something is impossible to fix, its not their fault is it (which it isnt really) but perhaps this helps them relieve themselves of responsability, it genetic, so I cant fix it, so I dont need to bother trying.

Whereas genetic or not you can always come up with at least an acceptable coping strategy if you take responsability
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Dobermann
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01-06-2011, 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Logically speaking - if a dog was born dog aggressive he would attack his littermates and his dam. So his chances of survival would be minimal.
Many dogs can of course be born with certain aptitudes or characteristics or particular genetic makeup that might lead him, in certain circumstances, to become aggressive. But then, temperament and character can be shaped. Fearful dogs can be helped to gain confidence. Boisterous dogs can be taught control.
This sounds like a bit of an excuse to me. Sort of - `give a dog a bad name then hang him` attitude.
I prefer to use the term Reactive anyway. True aggression (for no reason) is incredibly rare. Most aggression is a reaction to a situation.
but that is a bit like the 'Dams shake pups by the scruff' argument isnt it

if a fully matured Dobe, GSD, Staff, whatever was to start shaking her pups around like a ragger when they overstepped the mark we wouldnt have so many pups going about would we....
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SarahJade
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01-06-2011, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
I agree with yourself and the others so cant really add much other than it is a lot easier to blame the dog and of course in a persons mind, if something is impossible to fix, its not their fault is it (which it isnt really) but perhaps this helps them relieve themselves of responsability, it genetic, so I cant fix it, so I dont need to bother trying.

Whereas genetic or not you can always come up with at least an acceptable coping strategy if you take responsability
That's a very good point, if people believe these dogs are just like that and will always be, it is genetic, hardwired, built in then they cannot do anything about it. The general public can accept this, rescues can use it and any 'bad' dog can be pts rather than worked with. Owners can use this the same way, and either continue as they are, muzzle their dog or have it pts and not feel guilty about it.
Personally the changes in Cookie from a pup to being DA to how he is now I am glad I never put it down to pure genetics, I am glad I worked with him, to teach him that all the dogs out their will not attack him, to teach myself to be calm when another dog came over.
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Jenn~n~Luke
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01-06-2011, 06:07 PM
Very interesting topic, and one I've often pondered on myself. I really enjoyed the postings by smokeybear (sorry if I've got the wrong person)
The truth is, no matter how much we know, there is still so much we don't know....much we don't even know that we don't know if you get my meaning lol. Human psychiatry is a mine field of different opinions and things we thought we knew, but didn't. It only makes sense to me that if we can't get it perfect with our own race, we have little hope of doing it with another species.
I think it is possible that dogs could be born DA. Whether something has to be triggered before showing up, does not mean the person or dog or whatever, was not born with the issue origionally. The need for a trigger basically, does not negate the genetics or possibility of genetic involvement.
Either way, by using the belief that it must be triggered somehow, to explain why some dogs can have issues while others do not...is not going to prevent all instances of triggers occuring, no matter how carefully the owner tries to manage each and every situation their dog is ever in. It's simply NOT possible to micro manage every second of life that way, especially when we can't even hear in words what our dogs may REALLY be thinking or feeling. At the end of the day, we're all guessing when you get right down to it.
I too have a real problem with the constant blame that goes on in the dog world when it comes to every behavior a dog has. Whatever the issue..it HAD to be the human that caused it somehow. Not true..and frankly that kind of thinking only makes matters worse. Not to mention that something about the whole argument reeks of human egotism to me.
It's what causes those who want to fight BSL, to paint rainbows and butterflies about a breed that SHOULD be well understood before a person ever takes one on. It's what makes people refuse to aknowlege that at the end of the day, we can't control EVERYTHING in our own lives, let alone that of our dogs and that yes, as much as we love them, as hard as we work with them and for them, they are animals, they can and will be, at some point in their life, unpredictable in one sense or another.
Anyone who can sit there and guarantee with a straight face that they can predict every move their dog ever makes in its' entire lifetime...well..let's just say, if my ego were that big, I wouldn't be able to fit in this house.
So basically, it doesnt really matter whether they are prone to, born with or are triggered somehow, by DA. Not every human is gong to be a people person, so why do we expect our dogs to always like every single dog they come across? Sure it would make our lives a heckof alot easier if they did lol. But there comes a time when owners should accept their dogs for who and what they are, for the individual they are, and stop trying to force them into some jello mold of what they'd hoped they would be. If that means you don't have a dog you can take everywhere..so be it.
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Kerryowner
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01-06-2011, 06:13 PM
I think the above is an excellent post.

I felt much better once I realised that Cherry was never going to be the agility competition dog I wanted her to be because of her temperament and the fact that I would never be able to relax with her being off-lead and other dogs around. Yes it was a shame as she was so good at agility and I loved watching her jump as she was so graceful and accurate with the equipment but it wasn't to be.

I have had to accept that Cherry is on a lead most of the time but she can mix with some other dogs and be "normal" a lot of the time so that is progress.

I am also blessed with having Parker who is very sociable and friendly.
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Gnasher
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01-06-2011, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Logically speaking - if a dog was born dog aggressive he would attack his littermates and his dam. So his chances of survival would be minimal.
Many dogs can of course be born with certain aptitudes or characteristics or particular genetic makeup that might lead him, in certain circumstances, to become aggressive. But then, temperament and character can be shaped. Fearful dogs can be helped to gain confidence. Boisterous dogs can be taught control.
This sounds like a bit of an excuse to me. Sort of - `give a dog a bad name then hang him` attitude.
I prefer to use the term Reactive anyway. True aggression (for no reason) is incredibly rare. Most aggression is a reaction to a situation.
Good post. I personally do not think that dogs are born aggressive, there would be no point to it, therefore if there was an "aggressive gene" it would soon die out.

However, I do agree with what you say that some breeds are more pre-disposed to be aggressive in the right circumstances. It is far easier to train, say, a SBT to be DA than, say, a labrador ... simply because very sadly SBT were originally bred to be just that. It is far easier to train a GSD to be a guard dog, with the potential for aggression where needed, than a siberian husky. But I quite agree with you, true aggression just for the sake of it is incredibly rare in dogs, and where it does exist, there is probably an organic cause for it - such as a brain tumour. DA is almost always caused by humans, one way or another.
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