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Mattie
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07-11-2013, 11:49 AM
There are quite a lot of Pit Bulls by me, one man told me he had 10 Pit Bulls and 2 Staffies. I quickly changed the subject):
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Julie
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07-11-2013, 11:55 AM
It's amazing how open people are about it, and then we see innocent dogs that just look a little like a pittie and they are seized by dog wardens and can be killed just for looking like them.
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Tang
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07-11-2013, 12:29 PM
Excellent post Kanie. You made a point I often make in regards to aggressive dogs when it is said little dogs are just as likely to attack ....

BIG dogs are far more likely to inflict severe or even fatal injuries than a little dog is. That's just a fact. You can do more damage to someone if you hit them with a big truck than if you hit them with your pushbike. You can do more damage with a big gun than with an air rifle. Not being 'down' on any breeds, just stating facts.
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Mattie
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07-11-2013, 12:40 PM
It was a JRT who caused my accident, it terrifying when I think how bad I would have been if I had brittle bones, walking dogs does have its uses.
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Gemini54
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07-11-2013, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kanie View Post
I don't believe legislation would work either: as has been proved by the number of pitbulls at large all over the UK.

I do think people who wish to import and build up breeding populations of some very (for want of a better phrase ) 'site-specific' breeds ought to think long and hard about what they are doing and look beyond their own personal gratification.

Whether we like it or not, some breeds and some strains / types, regardless of size, do not have a disposition or needs that make them especially suitable as pets. It is just a sad fact of life that being attacked by a huge, powerful dog that weights over 10 stones is likely to cause more damage than a bite from, say, a terrier-sized dog.

The bigger 'status' breeds seem to come to these shores through 1 or 2 routes. They are either noticed by the show community and imported by people who want to push for KC recognition and therefore have a reliable means of keeping records and a route to exhibiting their dogs in mainstream shows. The second route seems to be via people who are deliberately seeking to own a dog that is bigger, stronger and more intimidating than their neighbour's.

To me, personally (again, notwithstanding the fact that regardless of which route the dogs arrived via, many will end up extremely well looked after and loved) neither scenario represents an acceptable justification for bringing in breeds that in my opinion (totally accept others may disagree ) does not have a role in the UK unless......

......they are 'toned down' by selective breeding to create dogs with a more pet-like temperament.

This sounds lovely in theory: it means people can have a dog that looks big and scary but is actually a lovely, family pet and everyone is happy - right?

Well, I think 'wrong' because human nature being what it is - there will always be some idiots who exploit these amazing dogs for their own financial gain and don't actually care about temperament. There will also be people (as Julie referd to in another thread) who actually choose to own an animal that they are a bit scared of and struggle to control.

If a breed goes down the show route, it might enjoy a surge in popularity (and get picked up by puppy farmers) and then trail into obscurity; small genepool and associated health problems (St. Bernard anyone?) before a 'new' version is 'discovered' and looks so much more healthy and unspoiled (Large Swiss Mountain Dog?)

Some breeds do seem to manage to come over here and stay in small numbers, with careful owners who value their unique traits. the last dog I saw that really gave me goosebumps because of its obvious intelligence, strength and character was a Kommodor. I have no desire to own one (much as I admire them) though.

However, just because it 'can' be done, I am not sure it 'should' be done. I really believe that while our rescues are bursting at the seems with dogs that would make wonderful pets and companions and while (if you want to go down the pedigree route) we have breeds that already have tiny gene pools and hereditary problems, to increase the choice available just exacerbates the problems all round.

I know it's not quite like the debate on zoos, but I'd far rather see dogs like Ovzcharkas and the like out where they belong, doing what they were bred for.

I think we should learn from history and take a hard look at how our native breeds have evolved and how imported breeds have fared and not just happily repeat the same old mistakes again and again.

As I said, legislation will not solve this and realistically, whether or not the KC recognises more new breeds will only have a certain amount of impact. I do think personal responsibility comes into this and a moral obligation to consider the wider implications on the future of a breed of dog and on society - not to mention the fate of dogs in general in the UK.

I'd love to hear other people's views. I'm not by any means suggesting I have all the answers and I'm not going to be at all offended if folks don't agree ( as lomg as you do it nicely!)
Hi Kanie,I agree with most of what you have said,the KC are trying to have registered breeders,requesting that they have a certain number of litters.and other terms and conditions.
But at the end of the day,a dog is molded by what the owner wants,if they want a lap dog,the dog will happily become that,if someone wants a dangerous acting dog the dog whether or not it has a tendency in its specific breed,all dogs wish to please there owner and will behave accordingly and not always in keeping with the breeds character,which was laid down many years ago and now some of the occupations that had kept a particular breed fully occupied no longer exist.
A little while ago,when farmers were having a tough time,they tried to rehome a working dog with a normal family as the farmer couldnt afford to keep his dog,the dog was rehomed and became bored,with that it became destructive and difficult,and a lot of these dogs ended up in shelters. Another breed the Greyhound,it is people who have got the wrong idea,thinking that a dog like that would need lots of exercise,also that they will kill small animals like a cat,so they dont get people wanting that particular breed,althoug the reality is most Greyhounds are couch potatoes and have no aggression.Yes there are some of the character of the breed in all dogs,but dogs will adapt for there new owners. Gemini54
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Tang
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07-11-2013, 01:11 PM
Kennel Club has 'Assured Breeders'.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/serv...r/Default.aspx
Not sure what it is you say they are 'trying' to do. Can you explain better?

I don't get into 'Kennel Club stuff' but I know they already have some Breeding restrictions too and they can easily be seen on their website.

Perhaps as I said, you could explain better what it is you say they are 'trying to do'? And what impact that will have on the subject here 'Importing breeds to the UK'

As for dogs molding to what their owners expect of them - regardless of BREED - sorry I think that's just rubbish. Would a big, powerful, working dog breed that requires a lot of exercise and mental stimulation mold itself quite happily to become a lapdog? Or that a small companion miniature breed would make a good gun dog?

After the broohaha regarding Crufts a while back the KC said they'd be tightening up and
they would change the standards – the ideal which show dogs must try and match - to ensure that all dogs are "fit for their original function". It will also ban the breeding of close relatives.
That's in complete contradiction to what you say about original function no longer mattering and any breed will mold to what owner requires of them.

Greyhound rescues already make it well known that they do not require loads of strenuous exercise and make good pets. However quite a few Rescues insist that greyhounds you take on are muzzled when out.

Here's what Battersea have to say about keeping rescued Greyhounds muzzled when out
http://www.battersea.org.uk/dogs/breeds/greyhound.html

You again seem to be saying 'most people' don't know any of this stuff you reveal. I am not sure who you mean by 'most people'.
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Kanie
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07-11-2013, 03:25 PM
I think it is quite naiive to believe that all dogs are just a blank canvass and can be moulded to suit their owners' expectations.

Some breeds that have been established many years and bred for the show ring and / or pet market do vary tremendously in disposition and many are absolutely wonderful pets.

However, dogs that have been bred for generations to fulfil a particular role will be less likely to have the diversity of characters within the breed. Obviously, since dog breeding has never been an exact science, there will be the 'softies' and the 'cheeky ones' and the extremely bold and outgoing ones, but I don't believe the variation in the breed will be the same as within a breed that has been established over here as a pet for many generations.

If you try to 'breed for temperament' you will get a lot of throwbacks over the years and just because you are follwing a careful and through breeding plan, it is no proof that everybody else is doing likewise.

Do genetics is a funny business: you can mate 2 utterly unrelated dogs and the 'calculations' will suggest you'll get something lovely and you can still end up with a litter with awful temperament faults if you are very unlucky.
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Tang
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07-11-2013, 06:06 PM
Mattie - It is always mentioned that small dogs attack too. Obviously. And that small dogs have maimed and killed children or babies too. I know that. But overall it is the big strong powerful dogs that have the potential to do most damage and the figures show that they do and are responsible for the most deaths from dog attacks or horrendous maiming. It wasn't an horrendous number of attacks by Yorkies or miniature poodles that resulted in the DDA being brought into force.

Kanie
I think it is quite naiive to believe that all dogs are just a blank canvass and can be moulded to suit their owners' expectations.
So do I as per my post above. In fact I'm not sure what point was supposed to be being made there. More or less saying it doesn't matter WHAT breed of dog you get - its future temperament and character will be whatever the owner imprints on it?

I'm sure you can get a dog that needs exercise 'used to' not being taken out for long walks. Doesn't mean it is good for that dog.

Quite the reverse to my way of thinking. A lot of thought should be given to what sort of home environment is on offer for a dog BEFORE you get one. If you are not very active don't get a dog that requires a lot of exercise. If you are frail, don't get a dog that weighs as much as you do and might pull you over. If you are going to be out at work all day every day don't get a companion type dog that will pine and whine if left alone. People shouldn't (IMHO) just get any dog they 'fancy the look of' and then expect it will just take on the temperament and character of a dog that will ideally suit their lifestyle.

Why would such characteristics always be mentioned when breeds are described if they count for nothing?
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leadstaffs
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10-11-2013, 10:32 AM
I have just had a litter of Lakeland terrier pups. There where five I the litter with 5 different personsonalities.
They have all gone to different homes and they chose different pups based on their personalities because they were all t
He same breed and colour.

It is the owner who has to decide what they can handle and why and chose the dog / breed based on thought and research.

Sadly that is were it all goes wrong big guarding breeds don't do it for me but That doesn't mean they should not have a place in society.
Just being able to buy a dog on impulse with out research is where the control should be but have no idea how that can be stopped without infringing on the individuals right to own the dog they want
Education education takes a long time but it is the only way at the moment
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Julie
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10-11-2013, 01:06 PM
Actually I disagree slightly, I am not saying they have no place but look at where I am living with a communal garden in a flat, the guarding breed dog here has bitten people attacked cats and dogs. It's a great danger to everyone. I maintain a guarding or fighting breed has no place in a community like this.

We need some sort of regulation to save the rest of us from people who make the wrong decisions about that they can manage.
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