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ClaireandDaisy
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
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07-06-2008, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Dee Buzby View Post
Oh...by the way...I'm more than happy to have ANY and ALL advice from ALL and ANY experienced doggy owners! Sorry if I gave the wrong idea, just that it looked like behaviour problems were the hot topic at the time! And just for the record, my pup and his littermates had "personality profiles" done on them at 7 weeks old (in Holland they do that apparently) and he was considered to be submissive and shy and kind!...
I wasn`t popping at you hun - it was just getting a bit like a hissing up the wall contest if you know what I mean. Your pup sounds lovely. Mind you, if someone had served me a nice dinner and then taken it away I think I`d feel like growling too. Have you tried putting food into his bowl while he`s eating rather than taking it away?
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JoedeeUK
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07-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Are the latest & youngest generation of behaviourists still being taught the good old dominance theory then? I know the celeb behaviourists on the whole do still tout it, but thought the dog behaviour training courses didn't anymore.

Dogs are dogs, humans are human. Dogs dominate other dogs & humans dominant other humans. Dogs are aware that humans are not dogs, the same as they are aware that cats are not dogs, birds etc are not dogs. There is no mutual body language between separate species. for example when a cat wags it's tail it is for a totally different reason that a dog wags it's tail.

Dogs are not trying to dominant humans & show them(humans) that they are the "pack"leader, they are just being dogs. As a mere dog trainer(ie one who trains dogs & people how to train dogs)& having no qualifications to show I have studied dog behaviour in a classroom & passed an exam, I teach dogs & people acceptable boundaries of behaviour, using positive reinforcement methods & not force. My own dogs are trained to walk to heel off lead using titbits, toys & simple praise-result my dogs never pull as they walk with me because they want to & have never learnt to pull on a lead. they are taught a recall off lead & come to me when called because they want to, not because they are compelled to by being pulled on a lead.

I do not take my dogs on long walks for various reasons, however they are in really fit condition as they have free access to a space that allows them to play, run etc 24/7. Even my vet was surprised at how fit my Cavaliers are & how their weight is always correct for their size.

Since I got my current second oldest BC she lost weight at first despite being fed far better food than before, the different was the amount of exercise she now has. She is now exactly the right weight & looks like a different bitch. Nothing has changed since she first arrived, but her body has adapted to the exercise & food & lifestyle she now has. She does have some hangups, but these are nothing to do with food, exercise etc, but previous home conditions & they are slowly disappearing.

My dogs nearly always precede me through doorways etc not because they are dominating me, but because they want to go outside, inside etc & for me it works OK. BTW in the wild the Alpha rarely leads the hunting, imagine if the pack met another pack head on & the Alpha was killed first not good leadership. The leader wolf is often the Beta & when actively hunting prey the lead is shared to spread the energy loss thoughout the pack.

As for eating first-well in captive artifical packs yes the dominant Alphas do tend to eat first as they do have to hunt for food, so it is the purely survival of the fittest, in real wild packs this is not the case, all the pack are related(except the two Alphas to each other)if there are cubs then the cubs & nannies & cubs are fed first when the pack return from a kill & they are by definition the lowest ranked members of the pack.

Dogs see humans as a source of food & "comfort"(ie warm bed, roof over head...)they do not see them as a member of their "pack". People who have multi dog households are not the leader of the pack, that falls to one of the dogs & they work out their own"pecking"order.

Dogs do what we require(like obedience, agility etc)because they enjoy it & those who use cruel methods to train their dogs, have dogs that show this in their body language

If you really want to try to relate wolf behaviour to domestic dog behaviour then try reading the works of David Mech a true Wolf expert & not those whose only experience is of manmade packs living in captivity
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 10:47 AM
JoedeeUK I have to spread reppies around before I can give you some for your post so just want to let you know I tried, and the comment was going to be `That is one heck of a great post`.
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Vicki
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07-06-2008, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
JoedeeUK I have to spread reppies around before I can give you some for your post so just want to let you know I tried, and the comment was going to be `That is one heck of a great post`.
Don't worry, Patch - I've done it
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Sarah27
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07-06-2008, 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Azz View Post
IWith regards to people failing to provide sources to back up their claims, well, people will see that, and their posted views will then undoubtedly carry less weight or lose all credibility altogether
Both Evie and I have provided several links to raw food websites for Steve to read.
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 12:30 PM
Fancy PM'ing them to me sarah, they were lost amongst the posts I haven't read....?
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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07-06-2008, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
Fancy PM'ing them to me sarah, they were lost amongst the posts I haven't read....?
Hey no fair if I have to read this whole thing then so do you!!
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Malady
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07-06-2008, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
Are the latest & youngest generation of behaviourists still being taught the good old dominance theory then? I know the celeb behaviourists on the whole do still tout it, but thought the dog behaviour training courses didn't anymore.

Dogs are dogs, humans are human. Dogs dominate other dogs & humans dominant other humans. Dogs are aware that humans are not dogs, the same as they are aware that cats are not dogs, birds etc are not dogs. There is no mutual body language between separate species. for example when a cat wags it's tail it is for a totally different reason that a dog wags it's tail.

Dogs are not trying to dominant humans & show them(humans) that they are the "pack"leader, they are just being dogs. As a mere dog trainer(ie one who trains dogs & people how to train dogs)& having no qualifications to show I have studied dog behaviour in a classroom & passed an exam, I teach dogs & people acceptable boundaries of behaviour, using positive reinforcement methods & not force. My own dogs are trained to walk to heel off lead using titbits, toys & simple praise-result my dogs never pull as they walk with me because they want to & have never learnt to pull on a lead. they are taught a recall off lead & come to me when called because they want to, not because they are compelled to by being pulled on a lead.

I do not take my dogs on long walks for various reasons, however they are in really fit condition as they have free access to a space that allows them to play, run etc 24/7. Even my vet was surprised at how fit my Cavaliers are & how their weight is always correct for their size.

Since I got my current second oldest BC she lost weight at first despite being fed far better food than before, the different was the amount of exercise she now has. She is now exactly the right weight & looks like a different bitch. Nothing has changed since she first arrived, but her body has adapted to the exercise & food & lifestyle she now has. She does have some hangups, but these are nothing to do with food, exercise etc, but previous home conditions & they are slowly disappearing.

My dogs nearly always precede me through doorways etc not because they are dominating me, but because they want to go outside, inside etc & for me it works OK. BTW in the wild the Alpha rarely leads the hunting, imagine if the pack met another pack head on & the Alpha was killed first not good leadership. The leader wolf is often the Beta & when actively hunting prey the lead is shared to spread the energy loss thoughout the pack.

As for eating first-well in captive artifical packs yes the dominant Alphas do tend to eat first as they do have to hunt for food, so it is the purely survival of the fittest, in real wild packs this is not the case, all the pack are related(except the two Alphas to each other)if there are cubs then the cubs & nannies & cubs are fed first when the pack return from a kill & they are by definition the lowest ranked members of the pack.

Dogs see humans as a source of food & "comfort"(ie warm bed, roof over head...)they do not see them as a member of their "pack". People who have multi dog households are not the leader of the pack, that falls to one of the dogs & they work out their own"pecking"order.

Dogs do what we require(like obedience, agility etc)because they enjoy it & those who use cruel methods to train their dogs, have dogs that show this in their body language

Try living with a pack of Malamutes, then see 'why' they do what they do.

Sorry, but again, everything you say is only 'your' experience and your opinion, and as you don't live with a dominant breed as a pack, you dont see how they behave around humans and how their adaptation mechanisms work with humans. It's all good saying dogs know they are not humans, and they know humans are not dogs......... I agree, but that does not mean to say they do not adapt their own instincts to deal with things, in a similar way to with dogs in their pack !

Watching a few dogs for a few hours, or hearing of people's experiences, can never fully explain how they really behave on a daily basis, within their normal environment.

To completely dismiss the theory when you have no 'living' experience of it, is somewhat blinkered IMO and also rather insulting to those who DO live with it, put up with it, and deal with it on a daily basis. That's like saying we are imagining things
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 01:17 PM
Hey Ben Mcfuzzy, seeing as most of those posts were deviating from the topic and very pedantically picking apart everything I said, then sorry but I just can't be bothered reading them. So, tough, I don't have to read them

Good post malady, too many people on these forums assume that their own experience is more important than everyone else's. Repped you for it
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Shona
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07-06-2008, 01:22 PM
I dont think anyone assumes there own experience is more important than others, I think its a place where we share experience,

steve why so defensive/ aggressive,

just chill we do all listen to one another,, we even take the time to read post before qustioning there content,,
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