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Adam P
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31-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Hi Kruse.

I don't know what your refering to, I remember briefly discussing something related to a view of dominance therory in some research I'd see. I looked up the research recently and its not quite as obviouse as I was led to believe.

Re other stuff like e collars, the research the antis often quote was either poorly done or used colalrs that no longer exist. The latest research is the german study that you can seen on the other forum I see you on in variouse posts.

Ultimatly I think we all make decisions based on our opinion, sometimes we use ''facts'' as we see them to back that and sometimes we are so committed to our opinion (for whatever reason) that we don't feel the need.

I could provide reems of research saying my way was right and most on here would deny it, wether thats because of their opinion on the training or me is debateable lol.

I tend to base my opinions on what I've experienced and those around me. I find its far better to investigate what works for you than anything artifical.

Adam
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Krusewalker
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31-10-2010, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Hi Kruse.

I don't know what your refering to, I remember briefly discussing something related to a view of dominance therory in some research I'd see. I looked up the research recently and its not quite as obviouse as I was led to believe.

In that case, can you send it my way for me to study for myself, thats what i was asking for.
cheers


Re other stuff like e collars, the research the antis often quote was either poorly done or used colalrs that no longer exist. The latest research is the german study that you can seen on the other forum I see you on in variouse posts.

true

Ultimatly I think we all make decisions based on our opinion, sometimes we use ''facts'' as we see them to back that and sometimes we are so committed to our opinion (for whatever reason) that we don't feel the need.

true


I could provide reems of research saying my way was right and most on here would deny it, wether thats because of their opinion on the training or me is debateable lol.

I tend to base my opinions on what I've experienced and those around me. I find its far better to investigate what works for you than anything artifical.

Adam
fair points
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Adam P
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31-10-2010, 10:24 PM
You've exceded the limit for PM (apparently) so here it is.

http://www.medwelljournals.com/fullt...2009.1412.1418

Adam
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Wysiwyg
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01-11-2010, 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
Terrierman had a go at the old APDT checkchain leaflet after I sent him a copy.

In his blogg he says, "I am past 50 years old and I have never seen a dog injured by one, and I bet you haven't either".
Hmmmm? I'm sure he is in denial!

Have a look down the page...
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com...1_archive.html
He's a head in the sand, out and out "the positive folks are really annoying so let's just have a go at them" person, isn't he?
I find his patter very irritating to read, as he is so rude.
So much is his opinion, and not all of it is correct! He is a know it all, yuk

I think much of that was in the DT mag, but an issue or so later, David Appleby (from apbc) addressed a lot of his points and made mincemeat of them (IMO)

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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01-11-2010, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...Re other stuff like e collars, the research the antis often quote was either poorly done or used colalrs that no longer exist. The latest research is the german study that you can seen on the other forum I see you on in variouse posts.
Problem is, the ecollar supporters prefer to think it was poorly done, and use excuses such as "it's the wrong collar" when the point is that it was an ecollar, and this is how some dogs are currently being trained (or were at the time of the study). Sometimes they even say that "we are not told what collar it was, therefore the whole study is wrong and we are not listening" la la la (hands over ears and eyes ).

Nothing else really matters.

Wys
x
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wilbar
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01-11-2010, 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
You've exceded the limit for PM (apparently) so here it is.

http://www.medwelljournals.com/fullt...2009.1412.1418

Adam
Sorry ~ this wasn't directed to me but I had to have a look as it was on an open forum.

I've never seen such rubbish research!!! You could drive a tank through their methods & the assumptions that were made & the conclusions that were drawn beggar belief!

For instance:

"We also assessed how spoiled the dog was based on 5 situations (giving extra food from the family's meals when they were eating; allowing it to lie on the sofa/armchair; allowing it to get on the bed; allowing it sleep in the bderoom; allowing it sleep on the bed with the owner). If the answer was affirmative, 1 point was awarded hence the score for spoiling ranged between 0 and 5 points."

Then:

"Not punishing the dog when it deserves it. Perhaps, if the owner does not punish the dog, it feels stronger and might develop a higher level of territorial aggression."

The paper was about the prevalence of territorial aggression btw ~ nothing to do with dominance.
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Gnasher
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01-11-2010, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Sorry ~ this wasn't directed to me but I had to have a look as it was on an open forum.

I've never seen such rubbish research!!! You could drive a tank through their methods & the assumptions that were made & the conclusions that were drawn beggar belief!

For instance:

"We also assessed how spoiled the dog was based on 5 situations (giving extra food from the family's meals when they were eating; allowing it to lie on the sofa/armchair; allowing it to get on the bed; allowing it sleep in the bderoom; allowing it sleep on the bed with the owner). If the answer was affirmative, 1 point was awarded hence the score for spoiling ranged between 0 and 5 points."

Then:

"Not punishing the dog when it deserves it. Perhaps, if the owner does not punish the dog, it feels stronger and might develop a higher level of territorial aggression."

The paper was about the prevalence of territorial aggression btw ~ nothing to do with dominance.
Not read it in full yet, but classifying a dog sleeping in the bedroom as being spoiled is the most utter tommy rot I have ever heard!! As very strong pack animals, my dogs HAVE to sleep with us, else they would suffer extreme stress, aside from wrecking the room they were locked into!
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kcggnbambi
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01-11-2010, 08:55 AM
The rescue we got our boy from sent him to us with a choke chain and said it was because he pulled, but I checked with our vet and he said the can do a lot of damage. I have only ever walked him with a harness and he's fine, doesn't put at all. I think its quite strange to have a rescue suggesting their use.
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Wysiwyg
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01-11-2010, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Sorry ~ this wasn't directed to me but I had to have a look as it was on an open forum.

I've never seen such rubbish research!!! You could drive a tank through their methods & the assumptions that were made & the conclusions that were drawn beggar belief!
I think this may be the "infamous" study done by (think it was a Barcelona group). If I'm right, it's one used by one particular training/behaviour organisations to support dominance and the use of punishment - the main bit, according to them, is that the study was done on lots of dogs but as Wilbar says, as you can drive a tank through their badly done research, it doesn't hold any water.

Another very simple observation is that they often use OLD references, or quote themselves Now, that is daft.
We had to use references that were as up to date as possible, and were penalised if we used any older than a decade, unless they were seminal.

Wys
x
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wilbar
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01-11-2010, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I think this may be the "infamous" study done by (think it was a Barcelona group). If I'm right, it's one used by one particular training/behaviour organisations to support dominance and the use of punishment - the main bit, according to them, is that the study was done on lots of dogs but as Wilbar says, as you can drive a tank through their badly done research, it doesn't hold any water.

Another very simple observation is that they often use OLD references, or quote themselves Now, that is daft.
We had to use references that were as up to date as possible, and were penalised if we used any older than a decade, unless they were seminal.

Wys
x
That's interesting Wys. Yes the study was by Spanish students & there were 711 dogs in the survey. But how this paper could possibly be used to support dominance & the use of punishment is beyond me. It's got nothing to do with dominance or punishment ~ it's all to do with trying to define the characteristics/causes of territorial aggression.

But the conclusion from this study (it is literally this one sentence) says "Territorial aggression depends on modifiable factors connected to the owner (environmental factors) an non-modifiable factors connected to the dog."
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