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Ramble
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24-02-2008, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
Personally I view all the doggy tv programs in pretty much the same way, entertainment.
Wolfie what does that say about that dogs owner though she was using a training method that I guess wasn't working and yet insisted on sticking with it because she likes CM. That's plain stoooopid.
You know what I love Galaxy chocolate but if I'm trying to lose weight I just have to accept that it aint gonna work if I carry on eating the stuff:roll:

Thats's what I've been doing wrong......
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Ramble
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24-02-2008, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
I would never dream of offending your sensibilities by suggesting you go and buy a book further swelling his ample coffers, how about the library, would they have it?
Probably...they had one of that Jan Fennell woman's....
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scarter
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24-02-2008, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by mse2ponder View Post
oh i didn't mean it in a critical way - i just wondered what methods people use from the TV programme? i don't think there are any tha would be suitable for my dog but i'm sure people must have found things they can use from it - or do most people view it as entertainment?
I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm bringing my pup up the CM way (I'm actually trying another approach), but I love the show and I've learned a lot from it.

OK, some of the things that I've used:

1. CM has made the point on a few programs that you should teach your dog to do the things that it's instinctively programmed to do. In the case of hounds that's tracking! Basically, if your dog is driven to do something and you don't channel it you'll have problems. Teach it to do the thing it wants to do in a structured way and the nutty behaviour stops. This was a biggie for us as we have a beagle pup!

2. All the stuff about your dog reading your emotions. I would have had no idea about that, but I can now see that he's so right. If I'm in the right frame of mind things go smoothly. If I'm distracted or upset we have problems on walks.

3. I picked up on his stuff about walking the dog. Just stand tall and believe that your dog will trot along beside you. On day one I tried what he said and my pup trotted along beside me. We had a little setback a couple of months later when she discovered her nose, but it was short lived.

4. Owning your space. Works a treat. I can tell her 'no' and 'off' until the cows come home. But if I 'own my space' she backs down and sits as good as gold.

5. I've never got anywhere with the 'tsh' thing, but my partner find that works really well.

I'm sure there's a lot more. I'm sure none of these things are unique to him. But he puts it across in a way that is much more interesting than all the 'sit', 'stay' etc of obedience classes. And as CM says, the important thing is to train the dog owners - and just like our little mutts...we won't do it if we ain't interested in our trainer

Without programs like Dog Whisperer and Dog Borstal I'd be relying on websites, books and obedience classes. So I definitely get something useful from TV programs like this. I know most of the doggy owners I meet in the park find it useful too. But we're just ordinary dog owners - not discerning professionals that can tell a good CM raised dog from a good Clicker raised dog - we just know our doggies are being better behaved and happier.
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Trouble
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24-02-2008, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Probably...they had one of that Jan Fennell woman's....
Now I really dislike her but the worst thing I ever said about her was " I think she talks out of the wrong orifice" I like an adult debate
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Borderdawn
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24-02-2008, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
See you got me agreeing with you again...

These threads are making me think as I really don't like the methods I see him use, but it is another case where the programme is short and you don't get a full history on the dog and family etc so it is very hard to judge.

I hate CM's tv shows, but do watch them on occassion because I love dogs and am interested in what people do if there is a problem. I enjoy watching thinking 'I wonder if this way or that way would work better'... I buy a Sunday paper that spouts loads of stuff I disagree with, but I think that keeps your brain alive more than buying one that you agree with all the time!!!
I also like Dog Borstal , I think Lynn is amazing and Mick Martin is ok..but that rattle bottle.....

I saw a young couple in the park with dogs...one was a young weimeraner (sorry can never spell that) and it wouldn't come back to them when called. It was a lovely dog, big and bouncy. Anyway, all their dogs (2 or 3) had headed over to me and were following me, the dog I had with me and my cheese! This couple were shouting away to no avail so I stood still... I still had more dogs than I set off with...so I headed back towards them to give the dogs some chance of getting their recall right! Anyway, got the dogs there, they headed back to the owners...but then set off again, at which point they produced......a rattle bottle.....and shook it when the dog didn't come back and headed towards me!!!!!! Apparently they'd seen it on the tele.....

I like CM more than the guy with the rattle bottle....
I don't like some of CM's methods...BUT the other side of that is that I do like some stuff I see him do...the dog that hated the car for example, he taught how to jump up onto a wall, then got him jumping into a car, thought that was good....
Thats just what I mean, any technique used wrongly will produce bad results. I dont subscribe to his pinning down, but saying that I have never had a dog that I thought needed it, so have never attempted it, IMO a well balanced dog will not require this, but as we know there are plenty unbalanced and out of control dogs that I really do think benefit. I saw its usefullness with a Bulldog, it did work with the dog, and it bit him! He never blamed the dog, never stuck the dog, in fact blamed himself for not observing it closely enough and watching for reactions. I think he shows us just what dogs are all about, not what we would like them to be about.
Dawn.
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Ramble
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24-02-2008, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
Now I really dislike her but the worst thing I ever said about her was " I think she talks out of the wrong orifice" I like an adult debate

Me too!!!
Can't watch her...I just think the entire time...'patronising, that's a big word isn't it?!'
At least i watch CM!!!!
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Patch
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24-02-2008, 07:41 PM
Just going to pick out key elements rather than quote the whole post if thats ok :

Originally Posted by spettadog View Post

All I can say is what I saw really distressed me - and also one of my friends who was with me at the time (and she is no dog behaviourist!).

.....

the use of prong collars (whether they are supplied by the owner or not!), e-collars, contraptions that fit around a dog's neck so it can't move; kicking dogs; alpha rolls and basically bullying dogs into submission. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG BUT CM USES ALL THESE METHODS WHICH ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT POSITIVE, REWARD BASED STRATEGIES. Anybody with a real knowledge of dogs and dog behaviour can recognise in an instant when a dog is distressed, stressed and fearful. That is exactly what I saw when I watched his "show". Because that is all that it is; a show that is dedicated to CM.

....

CM has no real methods of dealing with dogs;

.....

To me the man is a bully. If anybody came into my house and treated my dogs like that I would be asking him to leave - NO - forcing him to leave through the window!!!!!!


I have not one dog that has a behaviour problem that I see as a "problem that can't be fixed if I put some work into fixing it - kindly!!! The problem is that most people are lazy and expect others to do it for them without really taking the time to find out what the underlying problem is. Fix that, and the problem is eliminated.

....

Don't treat your dogs with disrespect and try to "dominate" them; they dont understand that. All any animal wants is somebody to try and understand them.

....

There is no quick fix for a behaviour problem with a dog.

.....

You will learn absolutely nothing about true dog behaviour by watching these types of programmes. What you will learn is how to do it all wrong and the only "being" that will be affected is your dog.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Spettadog, you can see what`s in those dogs eyes and demeanors too, you are not alone in seeing what CM is really doing to them
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Ramble
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24-02-2008, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Thats just what I mean, any technique used wrongly will produce bad results. I dont subscribe to his pinning down, but saying that I have never had a dog that I thought needed it, so have never attempted it, IMO a well balanced dog will not require this, but as we know there are plenty unbalanced and out of control dogs that I really do think benefit. I saw its usefullness with a Bulldog, it did work with the dog, and it bit him! He never blamed the dog, never stuck the dog, in fact blamed himself for not observing it closely enough and watching for reactions. I think he shows us just what dogs are all about, not what we would like them to be about.
Dawn.
Hmmmm...I don't like him, BUT I agree with everything you have written. Every dog/owner needs a different approach and at least he does see that.
Having been around a lot of dog classes of late, I also have to say that he is a lot better than a lot of 'trainers' that are out there running classes on a weekly basis and taking people's hard earned dosh.
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Patch
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24-02-2008, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
All dogs are the same and behave the same? rhubarb! One method WILL work for all dogs?
And yet Mr Milan does`nt seem to realise this - he does`nt vary methods for each dog at all, they all get the same being hissed at, prodded, pinned and forced to confront things they are terrified of all in the same way every time.

Dogs are individuals, each one will respond in different ways to different things.

Indeed Some respond to a toy as a reward, some to just verbal praise, heck one of mine will do anything for just a smile from me, and some dogs even respond brilliantly within minutes to the dreaded clicker
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Trouble
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24-02-2008, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Hmmmm...I don't like him, BUT I agree with everything you have written. Every dog/owner needs a different approach and at least he does see that.
Having been around a lot of dog classes of late, I also have to say that he is a lot better than a lot of 'trainers' that are out there running classes on a weekly basis and taking people's hard earned dosh.
Virtually everyone who dislikes tv programs dealing with dog training advocates finding a trainer and learning that way.
Everytime dog licensing gets discussed the vast majority advocate compulsory training. Something I'm not a fan of, and if the standard of training available is pants where are they supposed to learn?.
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