Hi,

With all 3 of my dogs I started off using a Halti. This was because I decided that as puppies they di dnot have the power to do too much damage if they pulled (not like a greyhound pulling from 0-50 in a couple fo seconds).

To stop them pulling when walking to heel, or at least trying to, I would just stop. Each and every time the pulled I stopped and commanded them to sit. I don't believe in yanking a dog's head, neck or any other part of them and I didn't want to hurt my dogs. Admittedly it took absolutely ages. But now, none fo my dogs pull on a lead, they can all be trusted off lead because their recall is close to 100% all of the time and it also means I can walk all 3 of them (amounting to over 100Kg in weight) easily on my own.

From the Halti I moved onto a half-check for a few weeks which gave just a little more freedom than the Halti. Now my big GSD does have his moments and the odd day of compelte silliness where I have to go back to basics, but he's fantastic and now, as with the others, he walks on a normal colar with a lead attached.

I agree that some methods work for some dogs and not for others. I've had aggressivce and stubborn dogs inthe past and I started with them by making sure that they knew that I and I alone, was the pack leader. This solved half the problems with many of them.

What really concerns me is how many people are out there who don't bother to train or exercise their dogs properly, then try out some methods they've seen on TV (whether Cesar Millan, Mick Martin or Robert Alleyne) and they get bitten because it wasn't right for their dog?

I'm not a qualified trainer or behaviourist (but would love to be); but I do know that first a dog must knwo how to respect their handler/leader. Once that is established, then you can move forward with the training. Until you have confirmed that as handler you are also the pack leader, any further training will be pointless.

Furthermore, I've found that I can control my dogs by changing my tone of voice. I don't have to raise my voice or scream obscenities at them (as I've seen some do). I've never raised my hand either to a dog or a child and I pride myself on my efforts in training my dogs and raising my Son at the same time.

Even if things take longer than one may expect, I know that my dogs are the best they can be and they will always try to do as I ask because they're always looking to please me. This is because they want to, not because they are afraid of what I may do to them or in pain/discomfort because of using a certain type of collar or harness.

A hundred years ago we fifn't have all these modern day collars and harnesses. If we had only flat/normal collars, what would some people do then?

Laura xx

When did you get this 9 month old puppy?

Was he socialised properally as a small puppy?

You say youve seen alot of "TRAINERS", thats not very consistant in itself.

Was he allowed off lead play at any point,

what was he like them?

Treating Agression with force is never the way?

Is the aggressive or just scared? Has he been mis diagnosed?
Is he protecting you?

You say hes not interested in treats, what sort of treats are you using? GSDs posscessivness can usually be manipulated to make good use if a special toy in training, have you tryed that?

Personally i think a hour PLUS walk everyday is much too much for a puppy, & could be contributing to his problems.

Need to look also at his food.What are you feeding him?

Where/how does he live when you are out?

All these (& more probaley) are things id need to know before , trying to help.

I really do feel for you
I know how you can become all stressed out on walks any everything
Also I know being told things like 'get a really good recal' although ment to help really are no help at all
I am sure your dogs recal is great - but if there is real fear/agression there then of course fight or flight is going to overrule all of that

Have you been to classes with other dogs?? I am finding that helps a great deal
Thankfully the trainer and all the other dog owners there are great and know what I am trying to do
we have spent lots of time just sitting in the corner not even looking at the other dogs
and when she was eventually calm enough lots and lots of praise, started doing a little training at the side of the class including a 'look at me' command
We are building up slowly and she does go for dogs who get to close to us - but that distance is getting less and less - we have even got as far a an offlead recal with the dogs sitting the other side of the room - how proud was I??

If that is not possible is there somewhere you can go that is a safe distance away from a dog park or something, and just take a chair and sit and wait till your dog calms down (might take a while but it will happen) then reward and go away and play, come back the next day and do the exact same thing
Eventualy your pup will realise that sure there are dogs there but its no big deal

Also has your pup played nicely with any dogs?? what is the body laungage when the pup is 'red zoning'

I know you can get this sorted out but stick to your guns, dont chop and change methods

Many years ago a trainer advised me to use a choke chain high on the neck like this in emergencies...`but be careful because you can crush the windpipe doing it`

Smokey Joe - I have had a similar thing with my terrier cross. He is a nightmare when he sees another dog if he is on lead. Off lead he is very friendly to any dog, no matter what breed, age, size, gender.

We don' know what has caused this reaction (he barks, lunges, pulls, spins) when he sees another dog. I thought it was aggression at first but now I think it is a defensive reaction. He is on his lead and can't run away if he needs to.

He is fine with dogs he knows when on his lead.

Things we tried: distraction with toys, food, noise. Doing nothing. Putting him in a sit position. Walking in the other direction.

What I do now is give him a sharp command (I say 'pack it in') the second I see him even look at the other dog. Then I praise him massively if he doesn't look at the other dog/bark/lunge etc. Usually just a high pitched, enthusiastic vocal praise. Sometimes a treat.

My dog is the same as yours in that once he is in that 'red zone' then nothing will get through to him. I honestly believe he could be seriously physically harmed at this point and he wouldn't even notice. So the trick isto not let the dog get to that point, to not let the dog even start the behaviour.

It's taking a long, long time, but I believe that the best results come from hard work. I can now pass a dog on the other side of the road and my dog won't bark maybe 80% of the time. This has taken maybe 9 months of hard work.

Thanks for all the advice guys! To answer some of the questions in the last few posts...

Smokey is actually good off the leash. My friend has a boxer and they love to play with each other in my friend's yard. Also, my sister has a pug... the pug doesn't like him so much because the pug is old and Smokey is so big and excitable but Smokey does not try to attack him. So off the leash he's pretty good. On the leash is a total other story.

I know he would bite another dog if given the chance when on the leash... one time when he was kind of calm (months ago), I had another German Shepherd approach us (also on a leash) and as soon as the dog got close Smokey snapped at his nose, instantly. So since then, I am hesitant to bring him near other dogs on the leash.

I got Smokey when he was 3 months and I tried to make it a point to socialize him with a lot of people/dogs. I know how important that is... I've had a few other dogs before. I live near a boardwalk and in the summer there are tons of dogs and people down there. So when I first got him, I would take him there for about 20 minutes and let him check everything out. He was ok with other dogs initially (some, not all) but everything else was just fine. Then all of a sudden about 6 weeks later, I took him to the same beach we go to every day and he completely flipped out on a bicyclist.... out of nowhere, never did that before and he saw them every day up to that point. Then slowly it progressed... every dog was now bad, then joggers and rollerbladers. Now just recently in the last couple of weeks, he goes after random strangers and even cars. Why did this develop when they were never a problem before? I think it could be a fear issue but how do I break him out of that? Or maybe it is that his protective instincts are in overdrive?

He's on adult food now because he was growing too fast according to my vet. One week a couple of months ago, he had a terrible limp in his front paw so I took him in for x-rays. They saw nothing but dark spots on his bones (all 4 legs) which the vet told me was his bones calcifying too fast. He was getting too much protein in his puppy food. I switched him to adult food and 2 days later he was fine. $500 for the vet to tell me my dog had 'growing pains'. Ha!

What else did you guys ask about.... oh yeah, the trainers. I worked with one trainer for 8 lessons. I talked to a different trainer early on but I didn't like him so I did not use him. That's when I found the guy I trained with. Both trainers told me the same things/techniques as did all the books I've read.

I don't think an hour walk with a GSD is too much. He's 9 months old and 70 pounds... he's huge and has tons of energy. After I get back from the walk, it's like he didn't even go. He's even more fired up than before.

I think I may try the toy trick... treats don't work but maybe if I have him carry a toy?? He does get pretty obsessed with his squeeky toys so maybe if he carries one with him he'll feel like he has a job.

And one thing that has helped the last few days when I walk him is if I constantly say 'no, no, no, no....' when I notice him starting to go into full alert. I sound pretty crazy but at this point I on't care. This has helped with passing people and cars a bit but not really with other dogs... yet. This is kind of the opposite of what the trainers told me to do because the 'no no no' creates an excited tone but whatever...

And I would like to take him to some puppy classes but I don't really trust him. Just to get into the class, he'd have to be on a lead and he'll instantly flip out once he sees another dog. They'd never let me in. And I really don't know what would happen if I let him off the leash when he is in one of these states. This dog completely flips out in the vet around other dogs so I think puppy classes would be the same thing. People are pretty scared of him. I might try the dog park... letting him look from a distance but he'll bark for an hour before calming down. And the other people don't really want to hear that or help me.

So that's where I'm at now. Sorry for the long post... just wanted to address all the issues you guys raised. I'm definitely not going to give up. Just looking to see if there was something else I could try.

Thanks again for all the advice!!!

My dog Sam used to be terrible on the lead walking past other dogs. He just couldn't do it. Like you I followed all kinds of advice trying to distract him with treats but once he was fixated on that dog he was deaf and blind to everything else. I recently used a remote spray collar and this basically stops him in his tracks and puts him off doing what he usually does..lunging growling barking etc. I only had to spray a few times (it doesn't hurt him) while at the same time saying leave and now he just walks past every dog. It is like a miracle. I think it was just a bad habit habit he had got into and he enjoyed doing it. Now I don't even have to put the collar on him. A simple 'Leave' command is all he needs. Maybe it would work on your dog.

Dog classes were no good for my dog either..it was just all too much for him.

This is just an idea..... I think I may have experienced something similar in the past with a young gsd, growing pains like you have mentioned etc. A trick would be to get him into his favourite toy which means interacting with him often and then carry this toy in your pocket, allowing him to carry it from time to time. It didn't take too long for me to get the dog focused on the toy at a time of my choosing, and it seemed to help reduce his pressure on passing other dogs as he had a focus to channel into and bite into (his hard rubber dumbbell)! Poor lad sounds like he has pain and is feeling very vulnerable. Just a thought - good luck to you both!

Magic

He does everything very calmly. But try watching with the sound off and just watch the dog's body language. Also see here for more info on why he is controversial :

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Has your dog had a thorough vet check to rule out medical causes for his behaviour?

I doubt if there is a medical problem but this is one thing that should really be done, if only to be able to rule it out
The test should at least include blood tests. Even if this is done, medical causes can't be ruled out completely but it is a start in closing that particular door.

That is excellent! Good news there at least
Great, but watch how they play - boxer play can be very boisterous and it can teach other dogs to be overly boisterous with dogs in general if they only ever play with, say, boxers (obviously I'm working on limited info here!).
All good.
Sounds as if he has what some term "leash aggression" - this is almost always due to the dog not being able to exercise his "fight or flight" option if necesssary as he is on lead. If this is the case, you will need to work on altering his emotional reaction and this usually involves classical conditioning - this is about "association" loosely, rather than about rewarding for good behaviour.

Are you certain the behaviour is not actually just frustration? a lot of dogs appear to be leash aggressive but are in fact just very frustrated.

Absolutely right, although at 12 weeks for a GSD it's not ideal. They need pro active habituation/socialisation from well before then really, in an ideal world...

Just wondering here but...is it possible you actually overdid it? socialising is so important, but the problem is if he was not socialised before this age (do you know his history before you got him??) then this might have caused a flooding reaction or just made him fearful (in the worst case scenario, again I'm working only from limitd information)



What was his attitude and his body language like?

When you say he "flipped out" do you mean he tried to chase, or barked??
It's possible he generalised one particular fear (ie fear of bikes) to being fearful of other things in the same place (dogs can become afraid of hot air balloons and even the smell of cut grass if they associate it with fear!!

Sadly for training, they don't generalise that well, but DO generalise well, very often, when fear is involved, as I think it probably is with Smokey.

My advice is to find an excellent behaviourist who uses modern reward methods based on science of how dogs learn....as mentioned above, if it is fear (and IMO this is very likely!) you need to work on the conditioned emotional reaction ... so you need to work on helping the dog associate whatever he is fearful about with good things. This may take some time and you would need help IMO.

Each time he is made to pass other dogs on lead, any fear he does feel (if it is fear) will be reinforced as will his behaviour as he feels it "works".
I'd say very doubtful from what you've said. It's more likely he's learning to "aggress" successfully as he is maturing and gains more confidence in himself, but really, confident dogs don't feel the need to behave in this way and would only tend to do so if they sense their owners are worried...do you think you could be sending your dog worried messages down the lead at all?

. Also if you ask your dog to do things (eg sit before lead is on, you control what happens at the front door etc) then they tend to turn to the owner for guidance rather than be too over protective.
What is his breeding, do you know?

I'm no vet expert but I understand this can be very painful for some dogs, which might explain some of his behaviour.

However, behaviour can also be "learnt" and this is the case if the dog "practises" it over time. So you do'nt want to be giving him the opportunity to keep practising it, you need to exercise him away from stress just until you find a really good behaviourist, which in my view is the best option in the long run (rather than a collar which may cause some discomfort or pain, which he may associate with other dogs... which will not help in the long run... and may make him worse...IMO).
Just to say, dogs won't eat if they are stressed, and if he's not eating then he is too stressed to actually learn anything.

You need to work firstly outside his reactive area, at a distance so he notices the trigger but does not react except by say, a flicking of his ears or a head turn. He will be able to learn more at this distance which can slowly be lessened over time.

If he's not eating, he's way too close.
Hard I know in a urban environment (not sure where you tend to walk etc) if so try checking out Pam Dennison's book about improving problem dogs in this environment

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB953

You may also enjoy this just as a training book:

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB759

This could be worth a try.
YOu could keep a toy very special and bring it out for play and fun as another dog comes near, and then gently take it away when the other dog goes away. A Jean Donaldson method called "bar open, bar close" which I used successfully on my BSD who became nervous aggressive due to being attacked several times without provocation.

The idea is that the dog associates the presence of other dogs with the best of fun and games and good things, instead of bad things.

What sort of tone do you use?
It's hard and you must feel a bit alone with the problem at times. We've had similar gsd youngsters in our classes but we are very careful as to how they integrate, if at all, with the other pups as we have to be careful no pup has a bad experience.

Hth a bit