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Hevvur
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Location: Preston, Lancashire
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,648
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14-03-2006, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by suz
Hump a 'special' toy? HAHAHAHA i WONDER IF IT GETS TAKEN OUT FOR DINNER FIRST.....

ohh yes!
She said he used to have small soft toys, but she bought him a big one so he could mount it properly
He also got fed sweets: love hearts, marshmallows etc.....
She admitted some days he drank about 2 pints of milk!
No wonder he was hyper/agressive!
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Mic Martin
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15-03-2006, 01:17 AM
Hi All:
Firstly sorry PONlady about the language I'm glad my moms back home in Germany or I would be getting slapped, this soap tastes ******* terrible.

Sorry some of you didn't like it glad some of you did, re TREE HUGGERS DOT COM or what ever the other sites are called there seems to be a change of tune on the old mic-o-phobia this week.

here it is


who is Mick? is he not nice?
Mick was horrible last week, he seems to have learned from Billy-Jean(?), charm offensive on the 2 ladies.

I thought Mic improved a bit this week though and I loved watching that very aptly named Boxer do agility.

Thought mick was ok yeah a little abrupt maybe but i noticed when he asked fudge's owner to check the gate and in a nice manner she just stood there looking gormless! so he had to repeat himself, sometimes its not always the trainers its the people they have to work with, even robert was getting annoyed with her and im not surprised what's with all the sweets! but she seemed ok in the end and was getting the hang of the training, fudge was alot better, and as for zebedee's owners leaving without telling anyone was out of order! as mick said he had been standing there for 20 minutes, and they got all of micks time training the dog and they just went! im not sure about the bottle method it works for some dogs but not all of them

I'm going to have to stop watching this programme - twice now I've had nightmares about Mick

Mick did improve his attitude greatly and got his team's co-operation because of this. He was the only one I saw doing any training and actually get the dog to enjoy himself. (Although I am sure the others did training too, it just wasn't shown other then this blimming bottle stuff...). Didn't like how the loose lead walking was trained, if they want to do it like this (yanking) and not kinder methods, then the dogs should at least be on a harness to avoid injuries and pain.


I thought it was great that the lab owner stood up to Mick, he learnt from it... good on him! He is obsessed with his press ups though, isn't he...
I thought it was exceptionally rude and totally out of order how Zebedee's owners just disappeared without even saying thanks or goodbye. They also robbed Zebedee of another few minutes of fun time!


Actually I think I like Mick best. I kind of like the notion that the dog is trained positively and the owners get punished for mistakes. I can think of a few owners round where I live that would benefit from a bit of that

Plus I liked that this week he did press-ups himself for making a mistake. Only fair


Well i quite warmed to Mick after he made himself do press ups, practise what you preach and all that. I found it slightly better than last week but i did get rather cross at one point and had to walk out the room to calm down.

Must admit to a small cheer when Mic said " If you can't be bothered to clean up after your dog - you shouldn't be allowed a dog" or something similar....
But can anyone shed some light on what he did with a photo of a bag of poo ?
( visions of them being developed at Boots......


think I'm just a "don't sugar coat it, cut to the chase" kind of person (I blame my Mum)!mI want to know if I'm being a rubbish owner, what I'm doing wrong and how to go about being better and I would tend to be irritated by someone jollying me along.

I'm getting really worried if they start to like me, I probably won't get a second series, or panto, or any of that bad guy stuff

Also some suggestion that the boxer was too young to jump (14mths)

from a group called WWW DOT I DONT KNOW WHAT THE **** I'M TALKING ABOUT DOT COM

Here's my criteria
Although agility training is best started with a young adult dog, some agility training can be appropriate for young puppies; this includes tunnel work, jumps lower than elbow height, and basic control training. Contact equipment work (i.e. A-frames, Dog Walks, and See-saws) should be delayed and/or kept very low until the puppy has developed the necessary physical coordination to negotiate a plank suspended above the ground.
Serious jumping and weaving work should be put off entirely until the puppy is much older. Because of the long term negative impact of jumping and flexing on mature, growing bones, owners are advised to research their breed thoroughly and only begin intensive agility training of this type when the dog is past the age at which the 'growth plates' are known to typically close for that breed. A very imprecise guideline for growth plate closure in mixed breed dogs would be 9 - 12 months for dogs under 50 pounds and 10-14 months for dogs over 50 pounds.


I had lunch with the worlds top behaviourist today Mr Robert Alleyne, who has forgotten more than most so called trainers know, and he is getting stick from WWW DOT LOONEY LEFT DOT COM because of the bottle thing, when used correctly its great, it interrupts a behaviour so that a new better behaviour can be taught using + reinforcement.

I use the Koehler method on the long line then reinforce using food or a toy, only on a collar. Obedience in minute’s perfection in years.

Questions answered:

The lab lady is a teacher
Steve its about budget its the type of programme that three viewers like
Ailisa I agree and your right mate its not a training DVD you might get one tip in the whole thing. But it might get people out doing stuff with their pet.
I was asked to train the dogs in the same style as I would if it was a security course, not a pet course. If I did that at pet school your right I wouldn't have any clients.
My pet clients about 60 per week are falling about, we didn't know you swore like that........
They don't do press ups but they do have to bring biscuits, doughnuts for the advanced class, when they make mistakes. Dog Fouls the Agility search area etc
I compete KC Working Trials have a border Collie ZAC CDx UDx WD 2xTD open Worked three Police GSD's to WDx one to the Regionals one to PD also Springer Spaniel Drugs detection.
Oversea's: 2 Labs Explosive search and 8 GSD's Public Order Middle East.


Thanks for your time.............
Next week (Mic gets bitten)
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Wysiwyg
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15-03-2006, 08:47 AM
Hi Mic,

I like Rob and often recommend the organisation he is with, however I wouldnt call him the "world's top behaviourist" as that is a heck of an accolade - I'd reserve that for Dr Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor and Jean Donaldson more maybe In this country I think Anne Bussey is one of the best I've ever trained with (and who won the KCC TD last year and was 2nd this year? )

Can you comment a bit more on the way you used the Koehler method? I know what it is, and if course he was a military trainer. I know some of what he recommended was pretty harsh, ie for a digging dog, fill a hole with water and hold the dog's head under the water and also use of mainly negative reinforcement I recognise some do train this way although I would be concerned if the collar jerking was as in taking the dog's head off (which I used to do until i learnt better! ). It would be good if you could explain more.

I go on pretty much all the sites and there are good honest opinions on all of them - some more knowledgeable than others but that's to be expected. RE the agility, I'd agree with your criteria re. contacts etc etc, I think the problem re the dog's age was that it was suggested the dog was 10 months which probably would have been a tad too young. Once it was cleared up that the dog was in fact 14 months, I thought everyone was OK with that?

One thing I was not at all happy about was the 2 terriers being yanked back on headcollars - whatever one's views on training, surely that is very valid crirticism? There is no defence for that sort of thing at all in my book. Not because of differences in training ideas, but because using headcollars in that way can physically damage the dog's necks. Also one dog was yanked and had a bottle shaken at it when it simply turned around - and the owner was praised.
That is not good training, it's not personal, it's simple fact.

Re the bottle thing, many of those criticising Rob are concerned the bottle is going to be the next craze - this is very valid as many who work in behaviour see the negative side of this long after somebody has said "shake that bottle " . People do follow the programme as an educational programme, whether or not it is billed as entertainment.

T'other point is that you can very easily teach the Leave or Off with out shaking bottles or aversives. I've been involved with training such dogs and it's not at all hard. It works with very mouthy and pushy dogs as well. If you combine this with also teaching an alternative behaviour (ie Sit) you have solved the problem.

I agree with Rob in that owners do need to know how to be in control, but that comes with general training, setting boundaries, and the dog/owner relationship in my view I also think Rob did assess the dog's concerned and knew those individuals would not be affected too adversely. I do have a faith in his assessments although do not agree with his first choise of method.

I think it's very natural for the tv trainers to be defensive, I am sure I would be. However, I also think it's important that viewers can be honest as there is no point in kow towing to anyone just because they are on telly. You have to be true to yourself and your own beliefs at the end of the day or there is no point in having discussions, thank goodness, we are still allowed free speech

That saying "Put 3 trainers in a room together and the only thing they'd agree on is that the other 2 are wrong" is very true, isn't it
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Ramble
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15-03-2006, 10:21 AM
Hi all!!!
Discussions are fantastic and I'm a great one for participating, life would be boring if we all thought and acted in the same way...Stepford Wives and all that!!!

I do think though that we have to be careful with this sort of programme and making too harsh judgements on the methods used. It is an entertainment show and if people take it as being educational then surely that's their problem not the trainers??? They are doing the best they can with the dogs and people they're given to deal with. It makes cracking tele whatever we think of the methods employed.I don't think the trainers can be expected to alter the methods they use incase someone tries to copy it and their dog bites them as it was an inappropriate method to use on that dog! As Ponlady mentioned, their is a disclaimer at the end..perhaps it should be at the start though???

As for it being the sort of programme only 3 people watch, well I know for sure that's not the case. I had a mum come and chat to me about the programme yesterday morning ( I think I'm known as the mad dog lady at my son's school!!!) and she thought it was fantastic. She doesn't own dogs, but loved the programme! (She thought you in particular were 'hysterical' Mic! (In a positive way I hasten to add!!!!!!)
it is a shame it's not on prime time tele, I think the BBC would be surprised...dogs are such a big thing in this country.

I agree Mic, it would be great if the programme got people to do more with their dogs, certainly the boxer's love of agility may have encouraged that.

I'm just thankful that at last we have some tv trainers coming through who are a million steps forward form 'The Woodhouse Way'!!!!! It's about time isn't it???!!!!

Can't wait to see next weeks programme and get on here on Tuesday morning and see what everyone thinks!!!! Fantastic fun!!!! (Maybe I nedd to get out more...hmmmm....!!!!!!)
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traceymcl
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15-03-2006, 05:50 PM
Hi Mic,

I just wanted to congratulate you on the program. I've watched both episodes with interest. So far, out of the three trainers you are the only one I would consider allowing to work with my dogs especially my male.

I loved your impersonation of a drunk person. Both my dogs would be over the moon to be approached by somebody like that and fed chips - neither of them is bothered by drunk people at all especially if they throw food!

I own two bullmastiffs and the older one, Cal is very strong willed. I wouldn't dare use the sort of punishment on him that I've seen Debbie and Rob use during the two episodes - I'd probably need a trip to casualty if I did. I use positive training methods only with my dogs with very good results.

Cal takes a dim view of anybody bullying him and I don't allow people to do it to him no matter how much they might feel such a big, powerful dog needs 'a firm hand'. I just tell them that they can try if they want but not to come crying to me if they get bitten.

On the other hand, he's fine with people giving me a hard time. That doesn't bother him at all! I once went to a training class where the trainer lost his temper with me - apparantly, I wasn't standing straight. He came up behind me, grabbed me by the shoulders, shook me and screamed abuse straight into my ear. Cal just stood there and let him.

I voted with my feet and didn't go back to the class - I found a nice, clicker class where I don't get shouted at.

Keep up the good work.

Tracey xx
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Wysiwyg
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15-03-2006, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by traceymcl
Hi Mic,



I loved your impersonation of a drunk person.
Oh yes, that was really good, now that was entertainment Mic, you should be an actor !
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Murphy
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15-03-2006, 07:31 PM
I didn't see the Weim and the 'bottle' thing but I used a similar method with my dobe Murph -he would go totally ape when he saw another dog ..training classes were a nightmare ...I wasted a good 15 months and a heap load of money on trainers/behaviourists and one good loud noise with the bottle had him transformed ...in fact the morning the trainer first used the bottle -that afternoon we went to a Summer Fayre ( complete with dog show) something we could never have contemplated -we had a lovely day which I will remember forever...different methods work for different dogs is what I'm trying to say ( sorry if I've gone off topic )...I enjoyed the programme, thought it was good sensible advice ...if it wasn't for the tents I might consider it
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Ella's Mum
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15-03-2006, 07:44 PM
did i miss it again ?????
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ceiron
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15-03-2006, 07:59 PM
i missed the first episode but caught the second one.

tbh i much prefer the police trainers methods, i presume ur mic ?

didnt catch names on the programme and the psot are a little confusing.

i have been to the met police dog trainign centre i nkent and had a good time there and i really likw their methods and these were echoed by the plice trainer.

i can see his principles and think thye are sound, i much prefer the abrubt honest approach myself.lol

can get an odd reactio nnow and then but it works and thats the main aim.lol

just been using the same method of heel aswell

works well, and seeing it being used o ntv i thought thats def ok then.lol

my rescue dogs quite well behaved but wouldnt mind a hand with a few issues, wanna do a free hoem visit :P

lol

also that lab and the owners feeding it habit, omg what was she on :S
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elsasabo
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16-03-2006, 12:01 AM
HI mick, i think ur fabulous and id love to do some work with my english bull x ,Trouble. Id like to see u try and makee do press ups though as im disabled and cant get on the floor,ha ha.Keep up the good work ur wonderful. Carole x
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