Absolutely ... But by being domesticated does not make them a separate species ... From 8 weeks when they leave mum and siblings they need to learn the rules of human society. We are pack animals too and live by very similar rules so it is not rocket science. My one year old grandson is probably roughly equivalent to a 12 week old pup and he has learned a long time ago not to pinch, not to hit my daughter's chihuahuas, not to pull ben's tail, and to stop whinging when he has to go in his playpen!! He tries it on of course, but he gets nowhere!

But you keep going on about how it's unacceptable and so dangerous to use the ignore tactic, when many times (not all, but many times) it does work to get the pup to stop nipping. The pup is not nipping out of spite, so in essence using the ignore tactic is not going to create an aggressive or unbalanced dog that cannot live amongst humans.

In the wild, circumstances are different because it is the same species using their own language to teach the puppies, so there is a difference between raising domesticated dogs and wild dogs since humans are trying to teach puppies manners that may not be so unacceptable between dogs.

But we are very similar species ... Which is why we have the greatest symbiotic relationship imaginable! Pretty much our rules are acceptable to dogs and vice versa. The puppy you describe is not biting out of spite, he is biting because he can ... Just as my grandson kept pinching my boobs until I stopped him! We are all born animals ... We learn good manners, social niceties etc from our parents, as do dogs and any other pack species in particular.

Feel like I'm stepping in the minefield here. But a few key points that I can see-

Puppies from what I understand go through the mouthy stage and it's completely normal for them to test their choppers on their humans. Hence several puppy training classes can be a very good thing.

Human babies go through a similar phase. Anyone whoever nursed their toddlers remembers those " baby" piranha teeth:0 In that case it's the nummies get put away until baby learns not to bite.

But as far as turning away from a pup. With some dogs time out immediately might help. Or just turning away for a few minutes "If you bite, you will get no attention".

But depending on how big or determined your pup is, turning away can backfire. I tried turning away and ignoring Callie when he got mouthy those first months with him...my butt, ribs, the back of my thighs oooooooch. With some determined pups it is not wise to turn your back on them.

Over complicating things can really turn something simple into a headache, which is what seems to be happening here. Gnasher is simply saying that it will not be tolerated, regardless of whether the puppy understand why or not. You don't always need to understand why something is being taught to you for it to do you some good.

I can agree with that wholly. I'm NOT getting bitten by my own dog (or puppy if that word is important here), I've said that a thousand times. It's never happened, and it's never going to happen. Mouthy puppies must be taught extremely quickly that it's a huge no-no.

My puppies are taught (I don't ignore it and wait for it to stop) from an early age that there will be NO biting. They learn quickly, and it stops. I mean it HALT stops, and the dogs do not "shut down" or any of that nonsense, they just learn to cut that out.

I do not strike or hit puppies, I'm not cruel or mean to them, but they are puppies and they understand when big, strong, human is not playing IF big, strong, human does it right. A big strong NO from a person like me usually does the trick straight up. I handle biting and aggression differently from normal training.

I'm not one of those people that if my dog attacks me or bites me badly, I contemplate keeping the dog or ask questions. Any dog that attacks a member of this family goes to the pound instantly, with no regrets, and will never be back. I don't toy with that dangerous stuff even the slightest. I think it's purely stupid to do so.

That is why I think it's extremely important to let the puppy or dog know in NO uncertain terms that biting isn't okay. I taught Nigredo not to mouth, and he does not fear me, has not "shut down", and is generally a very well behaved, active, and well adjusted dog.

Being assertive doesn't mean being mean or aggressive, and nobody is going to sit here and tell me it doesn't work when I have so much proof that it does work.

It works just fine, and as the OP said, her dog stops when her partner says so, but not when she says so. Some people may say it's because the dog is scared of her partner, but I read the original post, and the problem is that the OP is scared of her own dog. A recipe for disaster.

Telling a person that has begun to fear their own puppy to just wait it out isn't a good idea in my opinion. That is just my opinion. I think that if she works together with her partner, who the dog listens to, then she can assert some authority in her NO, as well and the problem will be solved.

You cannot compare a domesticated dog to a real wild wolf or dog in behaviour. They do not live in family packs consisting of parents & several full siblings from previous & current litters. Domesticated dogs have had their behaviour over the millennia modified along with their physical appearance to suit the domestic situation(s)of their humans.

From collecting observing domesticated dogs that I have owned over the past nearly 60 years, including mother (& father) in some cases & I have never seen a puppy under 6 months "punished" by the older dogs for exhibiting natural puppy behaviour, including nipping & mouthing much harder than the do towards humans. They tolerate far more than we humans do & they do ignore it & when fed up they remove themselves from the puppy. "Punishment",as such, doesn't include being "shouted" at loudly nor the puppy being removed & put into isolation, the adult may place a paw on the puppy or the mouth, not using much force & accompanied by a low guttural grump, which stops the behaviour happening. Puppies learn quickly that the behaviour is self limiting & eventually it expires. They then join in more adult behaviour, play fighting which looks & sounds horrendous, but isn't replaces the nipping & mouthing & again is completely natural.
My 2 youngest are at the very noisy play stage at the moment, initiated by the youngest, who has just turned 6 months, he doesn't nip or mouth although he did when he first arrived having been living with his whole litter from birth until they were 4 months old(in rescue awaiting travel to the UK), he stopped after 3 days simply by being ignored &/or distracted & then rewarded when he stopped. My last 5 puppies have been from abroad & so older than 8 weeks when they arrived, yet they all stopped after being treated the same way as I do my younger puppies.

I'm not surprised that certain people advocate methods that are based on the puppy needing to conform to being subservient & "knowing it's place", at least one in the past has used aversive methods to "train" their dogs, including an e collar. They believe that dogs need a "pack leader" in order to not be "dominant", which has been proven many times to be false.
I hope that the OP doesn't resort to punishment as opposed to shaping in order to teach their puppy bite inhibition & doesn't force their terrier into resorting to even more unacceptable behaviour.

It's just that people who lie and say or insinuate that telling dogs no and isolating them will never work are totally full of it. This worked long before this "total positive reinforcement" mentality existed. If done gently (no hitting etc) it works well for many pets and does not cause any "shutting down" or fear or whatever.

Dogs are not that weak or sensitive in many cases. Tons of love and food and a FEW "no's" will not cause many dogs to fear you, thus making the problem worse. That is not even logical or sensible. I just think some people go overboard. Your kids understand it (again, if they respect and love you and you do it right) and dogs often do, too.

As stupid as I think tolerating painful, scar causing bites until the dog decides to stop is, I won't go blabbering saying it doesn't work, because for some it does work. All this new science and all that isn't even always needed, being practical and using common sense can be just as effective.

IMO, the only difference between the arguments, besides the methods, is the level of arrogance possessed by the participant.

I would never use an e collar (not the same as saying they should never be used) and though I was given a choke chain as a child to walk a strong dog, it did not work and the chain quickly became an accessory, falling off one day and never being replaced. I would never use one again, and I never used prong, citronella spray, or e collars to begin with. So I hope that remark was not directed at me.

No myra, it was directed at me ... Gnasher gives a deep sigh at this point. I will not rise to the bait, but will walk away from this thread ... a shame because i have thoroughly enjoyed debating this very interesting subject. I agree totally with what you say with one or two exceptions. Yet again the Gnasher-bashers just cannot resist taking a pop at every opportunity.

Just for the record though my poor abused electrocuted boy is lying in my arms as i type this message in bed!

Poor ******* ... he is so badly treated!!

Happy new year everyone

All I will say is if the cap fits .................................................. .................................................. ...........