register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Dibbythedog
Dogsey Senior
Dibbythedog is offline  
Location: Middlesex
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Female 
 
18-01-2015, 08:07 PM
Thankyou. I couldnt get the link to open so i went to the family project website and click on Publications and found it there. Its free !

I been looking through my documents and found stuff I'd forgotten I had. Some I never got round to reading.


This might be of interest, It was printed in 2009 - you can find the whole study in PDF form and download for free if you search google.

"REVIEW
Dominance in domestic dogs
useful construct or bad
habit?
John W. S. Bradshaw, Emily J. Blackwell, Rachel A. Casey
Anthrozoology Institute, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford, North Somerset,
United Kingdom.

Abstract
The term ‘‘dominance’’ is widely used in the academic and popular literature on the behavior
of domestic dogs, especially in the context of aggression. Although dominance is correctly a property
of relationships, it has been erroneously used to describe a supposed trait of individual dogs, even
though there is little evidence that such a trait exists. When used correctly to describe a relationship
between 2 individuals, it tends to be misapplied as a motivation for social interactions, rather than sim-
ply a quality of that relationship. Hence, it is commonly suggested that a desire ‘to be dominant’ ac-
tually drives behavior, especially aggression, in the domestic dog. By contrast, many recent studies of
wolf packs have questioned whether there is any direct correspondence between dominance within a
relationship and agonistic behavior, and in contrast to wolves, hierarchical social structures have little
relationship with reproductive behavior in feral dog packs. Nor do the exchanges of aggressive and sub-
missive behavior in feral dogs, originally published by S. K. Pal and coworkers, fit the pattern predicted
from wolf behavior, especially the submissive behavior observed between members of different packs.
In the present study of a freely interacting group of neutered male domestic dogs, pairwise relation-
ships were evident, but no overall hierarchy could be detected. Since there seems to be little empirical
basis for wolf-type dominance hierarchies in dogs, the authors have examined alternative constructs.
Parker’s Resource Holding Potential (RHP) appears to be less useful when applied to domestic dogs
than to other species, although it has the advantage of incorporating the concept of subjective resource
value (V) as a factor influencing whether or not conflicts are escalated. The authors propose that as-
sociative learning, combined with V, can provide more parsimonious explanations for agonistic behav-
ior in dogs than can the traditional concept of dominance."

Stephen Lindsays books seem to the bible of dog training and behaviour used by universities Vol 1 covers Origins and domestication , Biological and behavioural evidence. etc
so I expect that would cover wolf behaviour and pack .
Its very scientific and I've only glanced through it.

Also , the Coppingers studied tame wolves for many years and put forward their theory in their Dogs. A new understanding of canine origin , behaviour and Evolution.
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-01-2015, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by chlosmum View Post
Woburn Park is 3000 square acres
Ellesmere Island is 75.767 square miles
Great Britain and Northern Ireland is 93.000 square miles.

So yes, it would appear that Ellesmere Island is somewhat larger than Woburn
I believe I described Ellesmere as a giant Woburn - which if it is 75 square miles, then that is a pretty accurate description.
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-01-2015, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
So basically you have never personally observed any wild natural wolf packs, condemn Dave Mech for observing the wild natural wolves on a huge island & prefer TV personalities to qualified scientists & think living with a cross bred canine gives insight into wild behaviour. Says it all doesn't it
BTW David Attenborough has admitted to faking some of his"wild life"footage using captive animals in captivity. He does have a University degree on"Natural Sciences" which he gained pre 1950, however his career is totally media based as far as I know. I don't think I would compare his depth of knowledge of real wolf behaviour to that of Dave Mech & his peers. I was given his book on dogs, very dated & lacking in understanding & interestingly has many acknowledgements to the literal works of others ! Indicating he relied on others for his "facts"
Joedee, I have never claimed that I have observed wild wolf packs. And I have always claimed that my experience with little F1 was an artificial observance of wolf behaviour. However, it was nonetheless extremely interesting and I would not have missed it for the world, even though it ended in heartbreak for me.

I do not condemn David Mech ... what makes you say that? I merely PERSONALLY think he is wrong - Ellesmere Island is very small in terms of the range of a natural wolf pack. I have no idea how wolves became to be on the island, but one assumes that they have always been there. In which case, they will be very inbred and thus my thoughts that we are not observing a truly natural wild wolf pack is probably not too far outside the box.

I did not say that I preferred TV personalities to scientists - I merely gave Attenborough as an example of contrary thinking to David Mech. I will say again, all the documentaries I have ever seen on wolves have maintained that wolves have a hierarchical system, a pecking order put crudely. I do not give a fig, jot or iota whether these programmes that I have seen over the years have merely been outdated and inaccurate, I am working solely on my own commonsense, observation and talking to people who know a heck of lot more than I about wolves.
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-01-2015, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
I dont know what dog- like traits you mean .
I'm questioning this .
Traits are to do with genes , for any physical or behavioural trait to develop the wolves must have genes for the trait in the first place . The chance mating of wolves with a mutant genes could lead to their offspring inheriting those mutant genes and may cause them to develop a different behaviour if it helped with their survival but this would only happen naturally over the course of many years .
If Mech interfered with the wolves breeding , say he selected wolves that wagged their tails or bark like our dogs do and let them mate , then the pups could also be tail waggers or barkers . That would be selective breeding.
he didnt interfere at all in any way , he observed wild wolves in their natural enviroment .

In the Russian silver fox experiment, Belyaev bred from foxes that were tamer than others , they became tamer but a "side effect" of that was coats became pied colour.

Genes and things Its complicated! Anyone , please feel free to correct me if Im wrong or can explain it better than me .

Do we really know where dogs came from? Whether they just shared a common ancestor or whether they are descendants from ancient wolves. I dont think they are wolves now .



Did you see the documentry Snow wolf filmed on Ellesmereon TV recently? Its on catch up and Ellesmere island must bigger than England , thats one bloody big Woburn Only about 150 people inhabit the island. The wolves there are native to the island , wild and living in a natural state , they werent introduced to the island or made up of different unrelated wolves.

David Mech studied them each summer for some years , I think about 12 . They are not living in a semi- artificial environment.
Dibby - I never said or implied that David Mech interfered in any way with the wolves on Ellesmere. Just the contrary, I believe he went out of his way to avoid influencing them in any way. I have a huge respect for the man, I just am struggling to accept his concepts about wolves and their lack of a hierarchical system.
Reply With Quote
Dibbythedog
Dogsey Senior
Dibbythedog is offline  
Location: Middlesex
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Female 
 
18-01-2015, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I believe I described Ellesmere as a giant Woburn - which if it is 75 square miles, then that is a pretty accurate description.

Closmum put a dot instead of a coma . Its 75,767 sq miles .
England isnt 93 sq miles either. It would be a bit crowded if it was
Reply With Quote
Dibbythedog
Dogsey Senior
Dibbythedog is offline  
Location: Middlesex
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Female 
 
19-01-2015, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Dibby - I never said or implied that David Mech interfered in any way with the wolves on Ellesmere. Just the contrary, I believe he went out of his way to avoid influencing them in any way. I have a huge respect for the man, I just am struggling to accept his concepts about wolves and their lack of a hierarchical system.
I know you didnt say that . I dont think you've understood what i meant.

you said "What David Mech was watching was the evolution of wolf into domestic dog effectively (I am not saying that wolves can be turned into domestic dogs, but by living in a semi-artificial environment, dog-like traits that we know and recognise in our beloved pets will start to develop."
I was trying to explain that they could not develop dog -like traits in those circumstances unless they already had the genes for it or if someone interfered with their breeding , which mech didn't, so therefore he was not watching what you are implying above but watching natural wolf behaviour .

Thers been a lot of studies by different scientists and they seem to have different opinions . Perhaps it would be fair to say that only the wolves know whether they a linear heirarchy or not .

Sometimes things get lost in translation , someone has a read scientific paper , they interpret it and pass it on and then someone else interprets that version and passes it on and its not quite as acurate as the original or its been misunderstood .
Believe it or not I'm nottrying to change your mind about wolves , its just that some of the things you've said, and your arguments for why Mech is wrong are not quite right or maybe give the wrong impression .

I'm trying to point out where its not quite right and explain why because when we debate these subjects , we we are influencing other people. I feel it important that people reading this can make up their own minds based on the most accurate information we can give.
Reply With Quote
Dibbythedog
Dogsey Senior
Dibbythedog is offline  
Location: Middlesex
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Female 
 
19-01-2015, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
We learned an awful lot from our little F1, and he was an absolute delight and an honour to live with. He bonded immediately with our Utonagan, Tai, and they would spend hours and hours playing in the garden - little F1 particularly loved being wheeled in my large mucking out wheelbarrow! He was an absolute treasure and a delight, and I still miss him.
I've never met anyone on line or in "real" life who has owned a wolf hybrid. Its been interesting reading about him .
You did the right thing by not keeping him, that must have been really upsetting for you.

Did you have to have a licence for him?
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
19-01-2015, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
I've never met anyone on line or in "real" life who has owned a wolf hybrid. Its been interesting reading about him .
You did the right thing by not keeping him, that must have been really upsetting for you.

Did you have to have a licence for him?
Yes ... but no, we didn't. It was a truly amazing experience and I was very humbled by it. I was always a little bit sceptical about the virtual impossibility of raising a wolf, or a very high % F1, as a normal dog. We did an enormous amount of research mainly with people in the States who either had F1's and 2's, or who were expert wolf behaviourists. As a scientist, my husband has access to some serious academic sites, and had email discussions with several experts, who all said unless you get your little guy at 3 weeks old, you will have no chance whatsoever of raising him as a normal "dog". He MUST come away from the sire and dam at 3 weeks latest. Being the stubborn idiots that we are, OH and I thought we knew better, and took little F1 on at 9 weeks. All would probably have been OK had the breeder not allowed the sire and dam to build an underground den in their enclosure, and raise the pups on their own without human intervention. This meant that the pups would be very fearful of man after the age of 3 weeks. Those pups that went to their new homes at 3 weeks were to my knowledge successfully raised as effective "dogs", but our little boy was completely petrified of us for the first 3 days, but then bonded with us, slept in our bedroom with Tai, our Utonagan, and we would treat him like a normal dog, which was fine until out on walks he saw another 2 legged animal approaching, and then he would freak. Man on horse ... fine, farmer on tractor ... fine, but man on feet ... DANGER!! Even at 16 weeks he was strong enough, wearing a harness, to drag me over so we knew we had to say goodbye. He was returned to live with wolf mum and CWD dad, and it was completely and utterly the right thing to do. It broke my heart, but we have a whole album full of wonderful photos of him playing with Tai in our garden, being pushed in the wheelbarrow, which he loved. His favourite trick was to put his paw on the lever of our fridge to make the ice cubes come out. He would play with that for hours, and was so intelligent that he knew when he released the lever he had to wait for a minute to be able to operate it again.

I could bang on for ever, but we learned so much from that little guy. I wish we had listened and picked him up at 3 weeks - wolves are weaned at that age and can perfectly safely came away from mum, but I thought this was cruel and wanted him to stay with mum for at least 6 weeks ... big mistake, and my fault.
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
19-01-2015, 10:20 AM
Dibby: I have downloaded a very interesting book onto my Kindle co-authored by David Mech. It is mainly about the range of wolves in Minnesota and is absolutely fascinating. He and others are studying a pack of wolves but also loan wolves as well.

O rats, I've got to go, OH has come in and is moaning at me to get on with some work... gotta go!
Reply With Quote
Dibbythedog
Dogsey Senior
Dibbythedog is offline  
Location: Middlesex
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
Female 
 
19-01-2015, 01:46 PM
There's endless material out there. I have a pile of books and some never finished. there are some that are supposed to be a must have if you want to study dog behaviour . I have Genetics and the Social behaviour of the dog , scott and fuller and only got as far as Chapter one .

I sometimes used go to regents park early on a sunday morning and watch the wolves in their enclosure at London Zoo as you could see them clearly from the outside .
I used to wish they were free in the wild but I suppose they were safe in the zoo.

You said "His favourite trick was to put his paw on the lever of our fridge to make the ice cubes come out. He would play with that for hours, and was so intelligent that he knew when he released the lever he had to wait for a minute to be able to operate it again. "

That is clever. It has been said that wolves are smarter than dogs .

Well , we are really off topic now !
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 15 of 15 « First < 5 12 13 14 15


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dog nips when I leave home suew Training 14 28-02-2012 10:39 PM
How would you deal with a dog that nips when excited? Ripsnorterthe2nd Training 15 09-07-2008 08:51 AM
My pup bites too - but Navigator Training 5 10-03-2008 03:53 PM
Dog Bites Mahooli General Dog Chat 25 09-03-2007 04:18 PM
dog bites Jenny234 Training 8 19-02-2005 10:40 PM

© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top