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Luthien
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19-03-2011, 07:07 PM
I'm trying to get him into agility atm.

When I say he doesn't chase cars, it is because he has never had the chance. If I car went passed and I let him off, I am sure he would chase it. If he happens to be off lead as we approach the lane, and a car goes passed, he will chase it. (Thankfully he has a very good recall).

The point I was trying to make is, he discriminates, he doesn't chase all motorised vehicles. Just cars and small vans.

As I said, if one is approaching, his behaviour seems more herding.

I am making him sound like a neurotic idiot now, and he is really very laid back in every other respect!
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Moobli
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19-03-2011, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by SLB View Post
Border collie's tend to herd cars - have you tried agility or herding sheep lessons for him - this tends to work. I thought you meant he chases cars.
Do they???? !!!
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Moobli
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19-03-2011, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Luthien View Post
I'm trying to get him into agility atm.

When I say he doesn't chase cars, it is because he has never had the chance. If I car went passed and I let him off, I am sure he would chase it. If he happens to be off lead as we approach the lane, and a car goes passed, he will chase it. (Thankfully he has a very good recall).

The point I was trying to make is, he discriminates, he doesn't chase all motorised vehicles. Just cars and small vans.

As I said, if one is approaching, his behaviour seems more herding.

I am making him sound like a neurotic idiot now, and he is really very laid back in every other respect!
Perhaps send a PM to Mishflynn - she was saying in another thread how she has helped overcome this problem in some of her client's dogs.
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Luthien
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19-03-2011, 07:18 PM
ok, thank you
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Lotsadogs
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20-03-2011, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
But you can't say that of the author of this book

Why do you say that?

From what I know of him, David Ryan (if that is who you mean) has spent 26 years teaching predominantly ONE type of dog training activity, in a very limited environemnt.....with I assume, a fairly limited selection of
breeds.

In my view that is pretty limited!

I know many service instructors and in my experience, their experience, is rather limited to the specifics of what they do. So he has been out of the forces for 4 years. I therefore stand by what I said, I wonder if he has seen enough dogs ???



I agree this would be very difficult, and perhaps not practical in Cloud's particular case, however, the book is not a tailored individual programme, it's a general book for dog owners, after all. One can't cover every eventuality in a book, to be fair. It is, overall, a good book and a good method (IMO!)

The main points are that the target of chasing is altered, and that the dog's mood state is always taken into account so that the dog is fulfilled and doesn't just rely on chasing to produce "feel good" in its life.

I do recall at a seminar, DR was talking about one of his most difficult cases, a beardie that was crazy for chasing but it had really bad hip dysplasia. I cannot remember the resolution for that dog at all, or if indeed there was one.

I wasn't criticising the guy, his book, or the technique, I just think that it appeared like a one size fits all. And I don't like those because they make people feel inadequate if that particular size doesnt fir their particular dog.

I dont need to have a resolution for Cloud by the way. My intention is to see how it pans out over her lifetime for the sake of learning. I can keep her safe, by lonbt letting her get near cars. Simple.

Dx
Hope that all makes sense?

Dx
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Lotsadogs
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20-03-2011, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Luthien View Post
I don't have anything constructive to add, but I just wanted to thank SB and especially Denise.

It is the first time anyone has ever said to me "some things are so ingrained that they cannot be totally changed", or words to that effect.

Jake is a car chaser. He used to stalk, twirl, lunge bark.. etc.

He still stalks, if not on a head collar. He no longer lunges, twirls or barks. I've achieved that with rewards for good behaviour (or just rewarding a car to start with!). I am under no illusions, if he was off lead, he would chase cars.

The solution is obvious, I never let Jake near a car off lead.

All the books I have read have fluffed this subject. There really is no answer is there?
Well done. Too often, people latch onto the need to "fix" a problem and actually many problems can just be managed.

Both SmokeyBear (from what little I know of her) and I have worked fairly extensively with High drive dogs, in high pressure situations. So we get I guess to deal with the "ogs Bolox" as it where, of prey drives.

However, you don't have to work in those environments to end up with one of those types of dogs living on your sofa!

Some "Lucky" folks get to have them by accident, or chance. And dealing with them, is often a case of management. Good luck with your dog.

Sounds like you are doing a sterling job!
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Lotsadogs
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20-03-2011, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=Luthien;2212969]

When I say he doesn't chase cars, it is because he has never had the chance. If I car went passed and I let him off, I am sure he would chase it. If he happens to be off lead as we approach the lane, and a car goes passed, he will chase it. (Thankfully he has a very good recall).

The point I was trying to make is, he discriminates, he doesn't chase all motorised vehicles. Just cars and small vans.

As I said, if one is approaching, his behaviour seems more herding.

/QUOTE]

Some herd, Some bite, Some chase, some stalk, some eye, some attempt to move and some are simply reacting to the noise or movement and they don't actually KNOW what they will do if they have chance to get free near the cars.

But all are dangerous to the dog and non should be considered less severe than another.
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SLB
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20-03-2011, 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
Do they???? !!!
I'm sorry Moobli - *some* Border Collies chase cars.. was what I meant to put. Must remember my *some* *may* words etc.

I've seen a lot on training programmes. But it is other breeds as well...
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Wysiwyg
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20-03-2011, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
But you can't say that of the author of this book

Why do you say that?

From what I know of him, David Ryan (if that is who you mean) has spent 26 years teaching predominantly ONE type of dog training activity, in a very limited environemnt.....with I assume, a fairly limited selection of
breeds.

In my view that is pretty limited!

I know many service instructors and in my experience, their experience, is rather limited to the specifics of what they do. So he has been out of the forces for 4 years. I therefore stand by what I said, I wonder if he has seen enough dogs ???


I hope this comes out OK, am trying the colours out in response to your reply

I guess we see things differently (and that's OK) but I would say he has a lot of experience. He's trained a variety of dogs in the police force as both handler and instructor, plus got himself the renowned (in the field) Southampton diploma and his main interest was predatory chasing. He has been helping lots of people since, with all sorts of dogs. I guess you are saying he's not had pet dog training experience for a huge number of years, but then he has had experience of training high drive dogs with chase instincts in the real world. I don't mind disagreeing though,

...
I wasn't criticising the guy, his book, or the technique, I just think that it appeared like a one size fits all. And I don't like those because they make people feel inadequate if that particular size doesnt fir their particular dog.

If he came across various situations, he'd clearly tailor his programme to the individual dog and owner, but within what he's found works. I think we'd all do that, no? In the meantime I think a book on chasing is probably the best to be found - I've not come across any other one, except the one by Clarissa von Reinhardt, recently published

I dont need to have a resolution for Cloud by the way. My intention is to see how it pans out over her lifetime for the sake of learning. I can keep her safe, by lonbt letting her get near cars. Simple.

Yep, we had a collie in the LD chase after our car, it was like lightning and was in danger. Shot off again back to the farm over the wall Keeping safe is best, does she do other things to keep her happy? I've seen some fab videos recently of some kind of huge ball some dogs were chasing, but with Cloud's physical problems it must be hard for her.

Dx
Hope that all makes sense?


I think so, and I shall post and see if I've got the colours right, so that my reply makes sense

Wys
x
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wilbar
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21-03-2011, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
If he came across various situations, he'd clearly tailor his programme to the individual dog and owner, but within what he's found works. I think we'd all do that, no? In the meantime I think a book on chasing is probably the best to be found - I've not come across any other one, except the one by Clarissa von Reinhardt, recently published
Wys
x
I also agree that the article (not read the book) is one of the most useful I've read on predatory chasing. It not only suggests how it can be dealt with & channelled so that the chasing is carried out in ways acceptable to owners & provides an outlet for instinctive behaviour in a dog, but also gives some very useful & invaluable insights into the underlying reasons for the behaviour & the physiology of the behaviour.

Inevitably a book or article that is about dogs in general & behaviour problems in general, will never be able to be taken word for word for every dog with the same or very similar problems. There's never going to be a "one size fits all" training programme that will work for every dog, of course not!! But that's the beauty of articles & books like this ~ we gain an understanding of the underlying reasons, see how the reasons & behaviours fit with our dogs, then adapt or use these methods on ways that suit our particular dog in our particular circumstances. It would be the same with any book/article/paper/leaflet about specific training problems. For instance, toilet training a puppy ~ we could provide all the basics things to do, & all the signs to watch for, & suggest methods that usually work ~ but it will be different for each dog, & different in each house, & different for each owner.
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