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Helena54
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17-03-2011, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
yep, I have to say, reading this, one of the first things that I thought of was that after getting Loui interested in a toy, HE automatically changed from chasing dogs to chasing the toy and the more he chased the toy, the more he wanted to stay with me (who played with the toy, decided when the toy was around..LETand ENCOURAGED him to run after his toy, praised his 'chase'/play) HE learned for himself that running was great, then learned that actually running after certain things was better than others. I also taught him to leave rabbits early on. I would take him to a place nearby where there were loads of rabbits in spring crossing your path and just repeat leave as they went past ('good leave') with him on lead. That was worthwhile.

Think if you are generally rewarding the dog as much as possible (when appropriate) playing and having fun with the dog in open areas, then eventually (and alongside maturity) after the toy has been fun, YOU are fun and you are worth listening to and being with you is more fun than anything else, pleasing you is a reward in itself.

Not sure if other people see it this way or not?
Just my thoughts as I was going through the posts. I'm not sure I like the disgust idea though, for a few reasons.
I do! My dog and I are best buddies because we plaaaaay almost all day long, especially with that ball when out and about, plus indoors when I'm trying to do some work, I still play with her letting her know she's not forgotten or ignored, she's not been told to go and lie down in her bed, so I'm her very best buddy, I'm the nucleus of her world (along with that ball of course), and that's why she never looks at anything else moving fast when we're out, she's just never wanted to, coz I'm far more fun and interesting. Play is the answer to most problems imo.
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Krusewalker
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17-03-2011, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by SLB View Post
Oh I didn't get that from his book. My dogs will never be like hers, if that is the case.
you did. you posted it earlier in your synopsis of the book.
and wilbar explained further his ideas regarding relieving the dog of his adrenaline drive, also the basis behind Angela stockdale's training programme.
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SLB
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17-03-2011, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
you did. you posted it earlier in your synopsis of the book.
Oh - I'm confused..
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Wozzy
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17-03-2011, 08:50 PM
The play thing works with Jessie. She found a tennis ball on our walk today and even though the place we went to is highly populated with rabbits and it's one of the places the dogs are free to chase, she never took any notice of rabbit holes or what the other dogs were doing because she had this ball to focus on.

I did get some very nice points out of Flynn too when I managed to lassoo the collies and tie them out of the way. I could even see one hen pheasant hunched down in the grass, she was about 4 feet away and Flynn was on solid point until I tapped his rump and gave him the command.

I dont think a ball would've took Flynn off point!
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mike_c
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18-03-2011, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
David Ryan appears to be on the same wavelength as angela stockdale.

she too believes that during her training the dog should be comprehensively denied stimulus to get its arenaline and hormones levels down.
meaning they literally dont leave the garden apart from driving to her sessions.
That's not at all how I understood DR...

Not denied all stimulus - just one's related to the behaviour you want to stop, so those neural pathways have time to decrease.
You WOULD want the replacement behaviour to be exciting so that those neural pathways are strongly reinforced and become the more rewarding (and default) behaviour.

Surely you wouldn't rob the dog of all the things it likes doing... that doesn't seem morally right or necessary.

I remember reading that adrenaline is a very short acting, in that it's completely broken down by the body within minutes of release, so long periods of boredom to "get its arenaline down" is at best an old wives tale, but is complete nonsense accordingly to biological science. That makes me a bit suspicious the whole reasoning for that part of the program stems from superstitious rather than scientific origins. (i.e. I did this once and it worked, therefore I'll keep repeating what worked, never realising that part actually has no additional benefit.)

DR seems to resort to minimally aversive punishment to extinguish the unwanted behaviour in only the most serious 5% of cases, and then in such a way that it won't be associated with the owner.

Is that how angela stockdale works?
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Krusewalker
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18-03-2011, 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by mike_c View Post
That's not at all how I understood DR...

Not denied all stimulus - just one's related to the behaviour you want to stop, so those neural pathways have time to decrease.

I know. thats what im saying.

You WOULD want the replacement behaviour to be exciting so that those neural pathways are strongly reinforced and become the more rewarding (and default) behaviour.

Surely you wouldn't rob the dog of all the things it likes doing... that doesn't seem morally right or necessary.

im not saying you should, nor was i commenting upon the morality. (albeit i do agree that some dogs benefit by not going out for a week or two to decrease adrenaline and teach human focus)

I remember reading that adrenaline is a very short acting, in that it's completely broken down by the body within minutes of release, so long periods of boredom

Its not about keeping the dog bored, its about keeping him unaroused.

to "get its arenaline down" is at best an old wives tale, but is complete nonsense accordingly to biological science.

Not the case with dogs, adrenaline can build up accumulitively over long periods of time, which then has an effect on the dogs overall demeanour and behaviour.
I think this is the cas ewith people too.
You only need to look at dogs living long term in kennels to recognise this. You can call it stress as well, ie, kennel stress. Some kennel stressed dogs benefit from a programme of being taken to a chillout room to lower their levels to reintroduce cognition.


That makes me a bit suspicious the whole reasoning for that part of the program stems from superstitious rather than scientific origins. (i.e. I did this once and it worked, therefore I'll keep repeating what worked, never realising that part actually has no additional benefit.)

?

DR seems to resort to minimally aversive punishment to extinguish the unwanted behaviour in only the most serious 5% of cases, and then in such a way that it won't be associated with the owner.

Is that how angela stockdale works?
I know what DR does with those 5% of dogs, i never commented upon that aspect.
Angela Stockdale is aiming to bring dog aggressive dogs around to be friendly with other dogs. She uses many stooge dogs for this. The purpose of her training programme is different ot the purpose of DR's.
Im just noting the paralells between both trainers having the idea of denying the dog that 'offending stimulus' whilst the rehabilatation is going on, in order to reduce their levels.
Anothe parallel is when i stopped some of my resuce dogs going for walks for a few weeks and only working thru programmes in the chillout room.
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Ramble
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18-03-2011, 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by mike_c View Post
That's not at all how I understood DR...

Not denied all stimulus - just one's related to the behaviour you want to stop, so those neural pathways have time to decrease.
You WOULD want the replacement behaviour to be exciting so that those neural pathways are strongly reinforced and become the more rewarding (and default) behaviour.

Surely you wouldn't rob the dog of all the things it likes doing... that doesn't seem morally right or necessary.

I remember reading that adrenaline is a very short acting, in that it's completely broken down by the body within minutes of release, so long periods of boredom to "get its arenaline down" is at best an old wives tale, but is complete nonsense accordingly to biological science. That makes me a bit suspicious the whole reasoning for that part of the program stems from superstitious rather than scientific origins. (i.e. I did this once and it worked, therefore I'll keep repeating what worked, never realising that part actually has no additional benefit.)

DR seems to resort to minimally aversive punishment to extinguish the unwanted behaviour in only the most serious 5% of cases, and then in such a way that it won't be associated with the owner.

Is that how angela stockdale works?
Not so. It isn't just the adrenaline that you are dealing with, it is the other hormones etc that are released as a result of the 'stress factor'...long term stress leads to all sorts of problems in dogs and in humans. It is important to lower a dogs stress levels for that reason (stress leads to a surge in adrenalin, but that isn'tthe only result or thing that you are dealing with.

For anyone that is interested David Ryan is doing a days seminar at Dogs Trust Merseyside in June.
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Lotsadogs
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18-03-2011, 08:52 AM
Hmmm. I'm never convinced by these "this will cure all" processes. In my view and experience, it often means that the writer/creator hasn't actually met or trained enough dogs yet!

Depriving a dog of the stimulus to be avoided is fine if that is a practical, reasonable and kind thing to do. For me with one of my dogs that would mean that Cloud, who is stimulated by cars as well as other things, would need to be kept solely in the garden or house and couldn't walk with the other dogs. Not practical, reasonable or kind.

Diverting the chase instinct onto something else is also not practicle and not kind. She has HD in both hips, so chasing a ball or similar causes her pain, so I am not willing to encourage this - and she often loses interest in a ball after two goes - she is too smart to chase an essentially inanimate, unresponsive object, if the process causes her pain. And any form of tug or vigorous interaction is not an option either as she has a weakness in her neck and is prone to dislocating her neck.

WHAT IS INTERESTING THOUGH, is that with CLoud, her interest in chasing some things, particularly cars has actually lessened over time (she is now 7). To some degree I deliberatly left her chase intstincts intact to see how they might change over time, and it seems that over time, her behaviour towards cars and some other things, has lessened.

What is also becoming clearer is that she has over time, brought her chase instincts under her own control. She can, if given enough of a reason, ignore cars, if she choses.

This kind of brings into question the "if you stop them practising, it goes away thing" that so many people seem to believe. That the practicing is what keeps the behaviour going. I personally believe that this is the case to some degree, with some dogs. But it is NOT the case with all dogs.

I believe that some chase behaviours, just like some maternal and other instinctual behaviours, are totally hardwired and even without ANY practice can be evoked at any time.


In other words, Some "chase drive" behaviour is indeed instinctual predatory behaviour and some "chase drive" is practised, diverted, or created behaviour.

Is it instinct or learned? The resolution to the two has to be radically different in my view. One approach will not suit both cases.
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Lotsadogs
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18-03-2011, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by mike_c View Post
That's not at all how I understood DR...

Not denied all stimulus - just one's related to the behaviour you want to stop, so those neural pathways have time to decrease.
That may be the case with "learned" behaviours in some dogs, but over time and with experience I have come to believe less and less that this applies to actual INSTINCTIVE behaviours. It is my belief that some Instintive behaviours are actually heightened by some degree, by the abscence of the ability to use them.

My youngest sheepdog, Connor, used to work sheep most days but now it is much less frequent, because at the moment i have less access to sheep. His behaviour when he is now around sheep, has become less easy to control and he has changed from ignoring sheep that I have no intention of working, to being increasingly interested in and harder to control around, sheep that we are simply trying to walk past.

Last time he did work sheep, he was much less responsive to me, much more focussed on his own agenda and more unwilling to come away from the sheep.

Depriving the ability to follow an instinct, can at times, in my view, heighten not lessen the interest.
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ClaireandDaisy
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18-03-2011, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
Hmmm. I'm never convinced by these "this will cure all" processes. In my view and experience, it often means that the writer/creator hasn't actually met or trained enough dogs yet!

Agreed. Any training method needs to be approached with the spirit of enquiry - will this bit work in my case?

Depriving a dog of the stimulus to be avoided is fine if that is a practical, reasonable and kind thing to do.

I am not convinced. Yes it may have worked for certain dogs with certain triggers. But collies can get excited by leaves, light and bin bags, can they not?

Diverting the chase instinct onto something else is also not practicle and not kind. She has HD in both hips, so chasing a ball or similar causes her pain, so I am not willing to encourage this

and this proves point one

WHAT IS INTERESTING THOUGH,.....is that she has over time, brought her chase instincts under her own control. She can, if given enough of a reason, ignore cars, if she choses.

True - probably because she`s never been able to catch a car so is it worth the effort? Law of diminishing returns?


This kind of brings into question the "if you stop them practising, it goes away thing" that so many people seem to believe. That the practicing is what keeps the behaviour going. I personally believe that this is the case to some degree, with some dogs. But it is NOT the case with all dogs.

True. I had/ have two gundogs. Neither had ever been worked or trained. They showed signs of having been kenneled and neglected all their lives. One was a stud dog. But both exhibited the drives immediately when taken into a field and faced with a pheasant. Shamus even points! No other breed I have had has done that

I believe that some chase behaviours, just like some maternal and other instinctual behaviours, are totally hardwired and even without ANY practice can be evoked at any time.


In other words, Some "chase drive" behaviour is indeed instinctual predatory behaviour and some "chase drive" is practised, diverted, or created behaviour.

Is it instinct or learned? The resolution to the two has to be radically different in my view. One approach will not suit both cases.
I understand what your saying. But intelligent reshaping does work with both IMO. So Daisy and my previous pointer transferred their drives to ball play. (Shamus, bless him just falls over then forgets what he was doing).
So where distraction may work with certain types, transferrence does work with the more driven types. JMO
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