register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
ClaireandDaisy
Dogsey Veteran
ClaireandDaisy is offline  
Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
Female 
 
10-01-2011, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
.....
Now they are designed totally differently.

Adam
more expensive you mean? better marketing? pushier salesmen using underhand tactics... like telling lies about electric shocks not hurting a dog?
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
10-01-2011, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Azz View Post
Do you really think anyone here thinks that was a genuine account/person?
Well it was, so believe what you want lol!

She could certainly spell better than me lol.

Adam
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
10-01-2011, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
It's not a matter of "thinking." It's a matter of knowing. Electric shocks hurt. If they didn't hurt, they wouldn't be aversive. And if they weren't aversive they wouldn't work in your "training."

Saying it doesn't hurt makes your whole training concept break down. If the dog won't actively work to avoid the shock because it doesn't hurt then the training goes nowhere. Since the dogs DO learn to fear the shock and DO actively work to avoid it, it becomes pretty clear that it hurts.

Let me give two examples:

1. Every single time I go to get invoices out of a metal basket at work during the winter I get shocked. It HURTS. I now avoid the box when I can or touch my clothed elbow to something metal to absorb the shock before touching the metal box with my bare hands. Why did I learn to approach it differently? The pain from shock.

2. Because it's winter I pick up static electricity pretty easily. I forget that and sometimes reach out to pet my dog. I often scratch beneath her ears or run my hands down the sides of her face and over her ears. The other day I went to pet her and I shocked her on the side of the face. For several hours afterward she would flinch away from my hands. I had to pair it with treats and make sure I was grounded before petting her. If the shock didn't hurt (and I have many times heard people, including you I believe, say that it's "just like" static electricity which "doesn't really hurt you"), then why the avoidance of my hands?

Shocks DO hurt and if you're going to use such things to "train" then you need to face up to what they are and what you're doing. Pretending there is no pain involved in being shocked is not doing anyone any service. Lying about it is not doing anyone any service and simply makes you look BAD. Be honest about what you do Adam because right now you're simply typing out a whole slew of lies. Why would anyone want to go to a dishonest trainer no matter WHAT they use?
Do you avoiding sitting in uncomfortable positions in the car?

Do you avoid staring at bright lights?

Do you put a coat on when its cold?

If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!

Adam
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
10-01-2011, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
Because they dont have a clue.

These people CANT train a dog, obvisley, & therefore their opinions actually mean sod all
Mnay people would say that the average jo with a dog opinions matter far more than someone with a specilised interest in training because the average jo needs the help.

Adam
Crysania
Dogsey Veteran
Crysania is offline  
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
Female 
 
10-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Do you avoiding sitting in uncomfortable positions in the car?

Do you avoid staring at bright lights?

Do you put a coat on when its cold?

If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!

Adam
Yes, but no one is forcing me to sit in those positions until I do something "right" and then allowing me to sit in a better position. Sitting in an uncomfortable position is painful and can be damaging if you do it for too long or too often.

Yes, but no one is forcing me to stare at those lights until I do something "right" and then allowing me to look away. Staring at bright lights is painful and can be damaging if you do it for too long or too often.

Yes, but no one is forcing me to go outside in the cold without my coat until I do something "right" and then allowing me to put a coat on. Going outside without a coat can be painful and can be damaging or even life-threatening if you do it for too long.

Checkmate.
ClaireandDaisy
Dogsey Veteran
ClaireandDaisy is offline  
Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
Female 
 
10-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Mnay people would say that the average jo with a dog opinions matter far more than someone with a specilised interest in training because the average jo needs the help.

Adam
this statement is off topic and doesn`t make sense.
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
10-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
more expensive you mean? better marketing? pushier salesmen using underhand tactics... like telling lies about electric shocks not hurting a dog?
More levels (10 to 127) so the dog can be catered for indivadually.

Before it was just one high level (way higher than any modern collar).

Adam
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
10-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
this statement is off topic and doesn`t make sense.
She said their opinion didn't matter because they can't train. I said it did because they are the people who need trainers.

Adam
ClaireandDaisy
Dogsey Veteran
ClaireandDaisy is offline  
Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
Female 
 
10-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Do you avoiding sitting in uncomfortable positions in the car?

Do you avoid staring at bright lights?

Do you put a coat on when its cold?

If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!

Adam
I doubt Crysania is a dog. Therefore this is nonsense.
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
10-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Azz View Post
We're going round in circles.
  1. Electric shocks = pain
  2. If you didn't need pain, you'd use motorised collars (that simply 'vibrate') instead.
Electric shock doesn't equal pain!

Adam
Closed Thread
Page 7 of 206 « First < 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 17 57 107 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top