Sorry, but my dogs are smart enough to know I am not a dog
I dont look like one, smell like one, speak like one, act like one etc

im not gonna get involved in this one lol.
but..... of course they dont think we are dogs! but they can only comunicate as such!!!

What makes you think that??
My dogs treat humans totaly different from other dogs and they treat children and puppies different too - different from each other and different from dogs or humans

Pack theory has been spouted so much that everyone takes it as a fact when it isnt

Dogs natural state is NOT living in a pack with other dogs, dogs natural state is to live and work in a symbiotic relationship with humans, that may or may not involve other dogs

I totally agree with you.

No, dominance might be natural to you. Personally I don`t need to `dominate` my dogs - or my family come to that. This is a discredited theory taken up with glee by unqualified so-called behaviourists with a good PR team. Try reading some books instead of believing what the nice man tells you and compare methods - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I can tell you that the domestic dog does not have a pack structure, they may be gregarious and be able to live in groups but that does not support any form of heirarchy. I know, I've lived in a multi dog household (am talking more than 2) for years and have never seen any such 'ranking'. All the dogs have individual characters, some are calm and placid (occasionally we are talking poodles here lol!), some will take opportunities for self rewarding when they can, and one is a complete thug when he puts his mind to it. All in all though they happily mingle, they play with each other, I wouldn't even say they have 'friends' as such they just get on as a group. That is FACT based on over 10 years of experience, infact probably nearer 15!

Dominance doesn't exist. It is a complete failure to understand a dogs method of learning, that is that if it tries a behaviour and it gets the result it wants it will repeat said behaviour, another reason why positive reinforcement works because the dog tends to get something good (treat or toy or cuddle etc) for performing a certain action and so that action will be repeated. Dogs do not have a pack structure!

Dog's aren't stupid, dogs can even tell the difference between individuals of different species, hence some dogs will accept the resident cats but chase the others off. They do know the difference. If dogs were unable to tell different species apart then how on earth can they be trained to accept family pets yet hunt rats and mice?
Becky

I will credit my dogs with a little more intelligence thanks...

I cannot produce the same body language or scents as my dogs - and it you observe, you will see that dog human interactions are very dfferent to dog dog interactions.

And me!

For us, Jaikei hated men and had clearly been very badly abused byt hem. She'd try to bite ANY male that came within 10 feet of her. I used only positive methods.

OK so it took 4 years to get her to accept that men weren't going to hurt her and there maybe easier or quicker methods to use, but I chose one that could be easily reinforced over time so that the trust was built up again.

I have dogs who squable occasionsally over stuuf and they don't pin each other down. It happens mostly with Zane and Yiannis (both neutered males). Not once has Zane ever used force to put Yiannis on the floor. Yiannis will voluntarily submit and put himself ont he floor and roll over. Zane will then hold him around the neck (usually just holds his collar) for afew seconds then he's up and they're both off causing grief again.
There's never been any element of dogs using force, pinning each other or holding each other down or alpha rolling. If they don't do it, why should we?

Laura xx

..me too .
If a dog is already fearful/aggressive because of previous experiences is it really necessary or fair to add to a dog's fear by choking it into submission by pulling a lead so tightly the dog's air supply is restricted and it is forced to submit,or to kick it between the back legs then wrestle it to the ground where it is forced to adopt a freeze response which 'closes it down' to outside influences, and how about lifting a dog from the ground by placing a hand around its throat so that its legs are left to dangle.
What does a dog learn from being subjected to these methods, it learns that humans are aggressive, are associated with pain and are to be feared not trusted.

As Claire and many here have found 'red zone' dogs or to be more specific dogs which are fearful/mistrusting/untrained respond well to understanding , kindness and patience. Using these methods when training enables a dog to build a bond of trust with the owner and to progress, and to do so without developing further fear based behavioural problems.

The positive training methods used by many here have been endorsed by the latest research from Bristol University ...
http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
..this latest paper also reinforces the findings of Alexandra Semyonova the internationally acclaimed animal behaviorist in her study 'The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog
A Longitudinal Study of Domestic Canine Behavior and the
Ontogeny of Canine Social Systems' .

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/

Pack, family, group, flock, call it what you like its the same thing in essence. Of course we dont smell the same as a dog, neither do ours kids, cats etc. but Im not saying a pack has to be exclusive. Im saying dogs originated as pack animals, like their ancestors wolves still live now. Dogs therefore see the creatures they cohabit with as their pack, regardless of smell, appearence etc. If they didnt have pack instincts how do you explain why then my dog will live harmoniously with my other dog but hates any strange dogs? Or will accept the family cats but chase any strange ones? Im also not saying they arent intellegent, just that at the end of the day they are animals with natural instincts & we should be careful not to humanise them too much!