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viktory
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15-07-2009, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Stokey View Post
Some of the things I am finding out appear to be a little harsh to me for example, if I walk in to the room and my dog greets me by jumping up then he is saying he is the boss or he should do nothing unless I tell him to, walking through a door before me means he is boss?
I actually ignore Ruby completely when I come home from work. She rushes to greet me, jumping up and mouthing me (she is still a pup) but I always put down whatever I am carrying, say hello to the humans and sit down before I greet her. By this time, she has usually calmed right down. Works for me and her.
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oldshep52
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15-07-2009, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
I found the title "Culture Clash" inspired.

Im always suspicious of any book entitled 'listener' or 'whisperer'.
Theories of Jan Fennell are the same as Cesar Milan - dominance, heirachy, and alpha.
The difference is where JF uses treats, Cesar Milan is more hands on.
There is another great difference between CM and JF. If you read Jan's books you will discover that the basis of her training is the dog doing something that it wants to do and not doing it by sheer dominance as per CM.it is co-operation and working in harmony. They are, in my opinion, very, very different and whereas I have no CM books on my bookshelf I do have Jan Fennell's books.
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Krusewalker
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15-07-2009, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by oldshep52 View Post
There is another great difference between CM and JF. If you read Jan's books you will discover that the basis of her training is the dog doing something that it wants to do and not doing it by sheer dominance as per CM.it is co-operation and working in harmony. They are, in my opinion, very, very different and whereas I have no CM books on my bookshelf I do have Jan Fennell's books.
Hello again oldshep

I've read JF, so know all about her theories.
She says you need to do a list of certain things to tell your dog you are 'alpha', otherwise the dog will be 'alpha' over you.
That is what the dominance theory is all about.
Her theory, and her status exercises, such as eat before your dog, are very old fashioned and have been printed by trainers in books for the last century.
It's a theory that has been discredited in many ways and on many levels in the last 20 years approx.
So, JF is a bit of a throwback to the past.
JF basis her theory on the heirachal behaviour of wolf packs, but her statements re wolves are erroneous..
David Mech, USA Federal Government wold Biologist is the best info re this:
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/m...stat/index.htm

Or read Dominance Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton

There are dozens of thread on here discussing JF.
If you do a search, you will get more info re this topic.

cheers
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oldshep52
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15-07-2009, 06:00 PM
I read Eaton's book. And as for opinions on Google....

her ideas make sense and would appear to work but I guess you pay your money and take your choice
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Krusewalker
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15-07-2009, 06:12 PM
fair enough.

but when you consider she has based a lot of it on wolves and has got that bit wrong, where does that leave the rest of it?

Also, its nothing new, but a rehash of very old ideas.
But, interestingly, JF states its a new harmonious way of living with your dog that she has formulated.
She calls it 'amichein bonding', but this is just a snappy catchy brand title, not an actual new behavior theory. Very nice phrase though.

The other problem with her theory is that its a one size fits all series of exercises for all dogs, and does not consider dogs as individuals.

As David Mech says, "calling a wolf (and therefore dog - my phrase) alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha. Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so "alpha" adds no information".

Alpha just signifies breeding rights, and as we are humans, and not dogs or wolves, we cant be a substitute 'alpha dog'.

David Mech says lots more.

Its worth reading the biologists Raymond and Linda Coppinger as well.

There are also many accounts on the dog forums of people trying the JF ideas and ending up with a withdrawn depressed dog.
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JanieM
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15-07-2009, 06:21 PM
I cringe whenever JF is mentioned. I realise for some people they may find the odd bit here or there helpful and that's great.

My own experience of having one of her expert "dog listeners" come out to see me was that her method made everything 100% worse to point where I actually think what she advocates and the "trainers/behaviourists" she trains are dangerous. You do a 3 or 5 day course with her and suddenly you are an expert with aggressive dogs, it's actually appalling that people are allowed to do this.
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Krusewalker
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15-07-2009, 06:30 PM
good point Janie

Did you also know, before your do her 'dog listener' course and qualify as a 'dog listener', you have to do an introductory course first?

Once you have done that, only then can you do the listener qualification.

Nothing unusual there, you might think?

Most courses you have to do a beginner level before the advanced level.

However, did you know that if you pass the intro course, you are only allowed to continue onto the the listener course if JF invites you?

Very unusual.

Might one wonder why you dont get 'invited'?
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JanieM
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15-07-2009, 06:36 PM
Hmmm, I didn't know that. Maybe she has to feel you are a certain level of gullible before you're allowed to continue ?
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JuniorDaddy
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15-07-2009, 10:33 PM
Have some of the people commenting on this topic even watched 'The Dog Whisperer'? He is a calm, gentle dog lover who clearly understands how dogs think & interact. His pack of dogs clearly adore & respect him & the dogs he helps on his show end up happier & balanced, whats wrong with that? 'Lottie' made several comments which seemed to only be the same as what Cesar preaches so why are is methods 'claptrap'? My dog is 9yrs old now & I have put up with his problems for years, since I discovered the Dog Whisperer a couple of years ago, Cesars methods have made a massive difference to our lives.
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ClaireandDaisy
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16-07-2009, 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by JuniorDaddy View Post
Have some of the people commenting on this topic even watched 'The Dog Whisperer'?
Actually yes. And read up on it. His theories are based on erroneous, disproved theories - which even the guy who formulated then has disowned as wrong. His methods are based on bullying the dog.
Try reading up on Positive training methods. It`s what reputable trainers use.
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