You could say that those here on Dogsey are a pretty good representation of the dog owning country as a whole and many of us have told you that there is no such thing as dominance, based on our own experiences and our own dogs but you don't believe that either. So to be honest unless a report came out and said dominance, pack theory or heirachy are correct you aren't going to accept any such research in any event!
Becky

Each to their own, you are allowed to continue with your dominance pack theories.

But for many of us here ,it is a breath of fresh air, and a jump from the dark ages practice of dominating our dogs.

Read it in the paper this morning , and I for one, was impressed with the article.

I would have thought you couldn't get a better "random" mix of characters and temperament in dogs than from a dogs home.

Not all dogs who end up in there , have come from traumatised backgrounds... it may be news to you , but many come from loving homes, simply circumstances ditate them being there

very interesting read. My sister swears by CM and his methods and I've seen her use the pinning technique with one of her dogs and personally think it has made no difference.

What did interest me was the last paragraph on that link that said the dog becomes so fearful it will do nothing and lo and behold my sisters dog does very little these days. Granted he's an old dog but he's still active but just doesn't seem to enjoy things like playing fetch in the way he used to. Makes me wonder if it's down to the CM technique recently introduced.

The root of his problems are due to the fact he was poorly socialised as a pup and is now awful around other dogs.

Makes you wonder , but I guess you will never know... but look at it from his point of view, every time he acts on his instinct , he gets pinned , or any other CM harsh method... will he know why he is getting such treatment, will he understand , or will he just fear , and be on the look out for negative treatment from his owners for no apparent reason (in his eyes) ..so you could not blame him, if he seems to have lost the "light" out of his personality

Might be an idea to show your sister the article

Becky, that is just not true ! I promise you. I am not a close-minded bigot, I look at all sides of the equation and come to my own conclusions. If mine happen to be in direct opposition to most of the contributors on Dogsey, then so be it ! As I have said before, I plough my own furrow in life, make my own decisions, and live by them and the mistakes that I frequently make ! Believe me, I am the first one to admit I am wrong ... it happens too often for me to be otherwise!

For every piece of research, there is counter-argument, and I like to look at all the angles, not just the one I happen to believe is correct.

I remain sceptical about research that has only been carried out on a group of dogs that let's face it, are going to be traumatised. Don't you agree that it would have been better to take a mix, as I have suggested?

Gnasher - this isn`t about you. It`s a scientific study, by people with degrees. You can choose to accept it or not. It isn`t an opinion, it`s the result of observation and evidence.
I just hope those people who are still learning and have the humility to believe that maybe they don`t know everything, will find it interesting and informative.
To those who are also getting a bit hacked off with blind prejudice, I recommend the ignore option.

Claireanddaisy : calm down !! And read what I wrote ! I actually did take the trouble to explain I have only skimmed through the paper, I have NOT read it in detail. I am merely saying that it is NOT scientific to take just one group of dogs ... in this case, dogs in a Dogs Home who are going to be traumatised in some way or other. This is just not scientific, I'm sorry but it is not, purely because it is unrepresentative of the dog population.

I am not aware that I am unable to state my opinion on Dogsey. It would be a very boring debate, wouldn't it, if we all blindly came on here and said "oh gosh, jolly super, what an excellent article!" Anybody, as far as I am aware, is allowed on Dogsey to state their opinion, provided it is done in a polite way, even if it totally flies in the face of every other contributor.

I don't know everything, I know very little actually, but having kept dogs for 41 years, some rescued, some traumatised, aggressive, male, female, entire, neutered, pedigree and mongrel, I do think I am entitled to have an opinion due to life experience. I am not a scientist - my OH is incidentally - I am not clever, but I am more than capable of looking at a piece of research and seeing immediately that it is flawed because of the "subjects" they have used to base their research on.

However, I will read the paper, and doubtless it will be very interesting and I will learn a lot from it.

Sorry if you find me so obnoxious and objectionable that you would wish people to ignore me. That is their right of course, but I personally find your remarks very unkind, undeserved and upsetting. I will repeat again ... if we all agreed, it would make for a very boring debate wouldn't it?

Gnasher, this is not about you or your training methods - you say you dont use any of the dom stuff anyway
But
You poke holes in a scientific paper researched and published for all the scientific community to see and comment on - yet you happily believe every word of people who do far less objective work and have no scientific background and do not publish their work - and what is seen of their work is disliked by pretty much every expert in the field for being outdated and flawed

SE has worked a little with indians who have their ideas of what the wolf is like and why it does things - most of the rest of his work has been done on a pack of wolves that he has hand reared and trained to behaive in the ways he expected them too

CM studied the pack of dogs his grandfather had - trained by his grandfather and whatever methods the grandfather used
He has then really only had dealing with dogs with serious issues and never well balanced happy dogs
- and again he does not publish his work and there are many trainers who have to deal with dog problems that have turned up as a result of his training methods

v easy to pick faults in these twos methods!

I am not "poking holes" !! I am merely pointing out that the research is flawed ! And I ran this past my husband, who IS a scientist, whilst I drove him to the station this morning, and he agreed.

I will read this paper, and there may be many good points on there. I am looking forward to it.

I'm sorry if you feel I shouldn't have "butted in". I didn't realise this thread was only for those people who agree with everything the majority say.