register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Callum
Dogsey Senior
Callum is offline  
Location: NW Scotland
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 432
Male 
 
05-01-2008, 11:54 PM
Something I didnt realise until recently and to do with the collar point (partly) is that he doesnt get any advanced info on the dog/s issue's or even their breed until he arrives at the owners house. Would make it hard to have the right training aid/collar.

On the scared stiff point I think its more respect than fear, imo
Wysiwyg
Dogsey Veteran
Wysiwyg is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 08:26 AM
I've often pondered on how or why so many genuine dog lovers differ in their views on training methods/trainers and I think one of the reasons is that a person needs to study stress in dogs before really being able to get to see what Cesar Milan does. If you can read dog body language correctly, then there is no argument that he is causing some dogs fear.

Example: I used to love Barbara Woodhouse (bless 'er! ) and used her methods, partly because I felt there was no option and partly because I didn't feel it was unkind, even though I was jerking dogs about a lot and not showing them what I did want them to do.

Later, I got interested in how dogs think and learn, and started to do some serious study. My first was probably the John Fisher Canine/Human Interface at the Animal Care College. There was a fair bit in the course about stress and how to understand it, and it was as if someone had put a light on

I went to dog training classes and suddenly saw so much, whereas before I would never have seen the signs of anxiety or fear in the dogs. Before I had considered myself fairly good at understanding or reading dogs. After, I was shocked at how little I really knew.

I think it's the same with some of the programmes on today; some people can see anxious dogs, others see only results and no fear, and yet others may see the stress, but think the end justifies the means.

Well, that's my "thought for the day"

Wys
x
mishflynn
Dogsey Veteran
mishflynn is offline  
Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 08:32 AM
Originally Posted by Inca View Post
scared stiff ??? are they

i haven't seen those episodes
i have! & i havent watched many!

***

what im seeing from posts on CM, that people see him in VERY different ways.

Thats fine!

If i see scared & you/he dosent then thats just our differeing of opinions, & views,which i thought is what this thread was about

no one will convince me that he DOSENT abuse/bully dogs.

& people that like his methods will NOT be convinced that he does.

Im abit bored of "debating" it, no one is going to convince anybody to change sides on this one.

I thought this was a thread on putting down our views on him not having our views picked apart or i wouldnt have bothered posting on it
Wysiwyg
Dogsey Veteran
Wysiwyg is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by bobbles View Post
Did you see the episode where the Dashhound bit him if that had happened on Dog Borstal the dog would of been PTS.
One of the very worst things IMO about his methods is that he puts a bite history on dogs that don't need one. That's really not good

I do like the way he walks into a situation and the dogs immediatley respect him, he lives with a huge pack of dogs and many of them are pitbulls
I go on a few US lists and it was going around that he put all his dogs back in rescue when he moved house
There are trainers in the US, particularly in areas such as Philadelphia where get pit bull fighting goes on, who rehab the dogs without using CM techniques.

I must say alot of the time the dogs do seem to be scared stiff of him, so I have mixed views on the man
I like the way he promotes exercise (unless it is exhaustive) although most owners in real life can't exercise dogs for hours every day. I think for me that is his best "bit"

Wys
x
Meg
Supervisor
Meg is offline  
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
Female  Diamond Supporter 
 
06-01-2008, 09:42 AM
CM is not anyone I would recommend as someone whose techniques should be followed.

He seems to favour forcing dogs to submit. It is possible to handle and train dogs without having to resort to physically forcing them into submission, a technique which can lead to further behavioural problems in the future.

Aggression breeds aggression, in my experience dogs who learn to trust and associate people with pleasure not fear and are taught with patience are not the dogs who develop problems with fear aggression.
mo
Dogsey Veteran
mo is offline  
Location: Manchester
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,900
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 09:44 AM
I personally like him, and IMO many of the people he helps may have been to all and sundry trainers behaviouist for all we know and still have dogs with issues, as far as I am concerned his methods whether I agree with all of them or not, he turns most dogs around and that in my book is great because many of the dogs are a serious incident waiting to happen, and the end result the dog being PTS. most of the time he is actually reversing the damage the owners have made in their lack of understanding the dog.

Mo
jess
Dogsey Veteran
jess is offline  
Location: Scotland
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,578
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 09:48 AM
Good post mini, I agree: whenever we use a training method we need to think of the future, and what that dog learns from these experiences.

I would sum up these type of shows in one word : Entertainment
JoedeeUK
Dogsey Veteran
JoedeeUK is offline  
Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Callum View Post
Something I didnt realise until recently and to do with the collar point (partly) is that he doesnt get any advanced info on the dog/s issue's or even their breed until he arrives at the owners house. Would make it hard to have the right training aid/collar.

On the scared stiff point I think its more respect than fear, imo

Oh dear I'm afraid that that is not the case, the dogs are put forward by their owners for"rehabilitation"CM style via his website & they pick & choose the dogs to feature that will make good TV. He is well aware of what the"issues"are beforehand just as all the TV celeb & non celeb dog behaviourists.

He only uses his thin slip collar than can be tightened under the ears, pinch collars, his illusion collars & the electric shock collars.

The dogs are scared the behaviour they show is not respect it is symptomatic of stress & fear

I'm sitting here watching my puppy, Wukee, & tom kitten, Reg, playing. Reg invites the play by rolling in front of Wukee & Wukee responds with the "puppy"bounce. Now the two behaviours swopped round would be attack from the kitten & submission from the puppy. It would be so easy to interpret the behaviours both as canine or both feline & I know of behaviourists who do this.

CM is the same with the various breeds & non breeds he deals with, he treats them all as domestic"wolves"based on the artifical captive pack studies.

However not all breeds react in the same way for some behaviours.

For example a GSD barking at another dog is not necessarily aggressive as GSDs are very vocal, it can be an invitation to play & if you have different breeds running together they can acquire the others behaviour. Normally Border Collies do not bark at a dog to initiate play Mine have always done this as I have always had them alongside my GSDs(except for Jessie & Wukee obviously), the Cavaliers are the same which would confuse many people, because it is not expected.

I have always had dogs & cats so all my cats have been unfraid of dogs(one actually behaved just like a dog)& my dogs have been brought up with cats(except Rjj & Jessie)however the other dogs have taught them how to behave around the kittens.
perrodeagua
Dogsey Senior
perrodeagua is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 356
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Scared stiff, how about the dog that he threw on the floor and sat on it, it's eyes were out of its head and it's tongue was blue, that dog was in distress. I am petrified now and wouldn't be surprised if people with dogs that are supposedly aggressive start doing this. I've already heard it mentioned that people have seen people do the same in public because they saw CM do it.

I can see a disaster waiting to happen myself and wonder how these families that have had serious incidents lately trained or treated their dogs.

Of course now because some people were going to sue it does say not to try it yourselves!
Evie
Dogsey Veteran
Evie is offline  
Location: N.Ireland
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,251
Female 
 
06-01-2008, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I've often pondered on how or why so many genuine dog lovers differ in their views on training methods/trainers and I think one of the reasons is that a person needs to study stress in dogs before really being able to get to see what Cesar Milan does. If you can read dog body language correctly, then there is no argument that he is causing some dogs fear.

........

Later, I got interested in how dogs think and learn, and started to do some serious study. My first was probably the John Fisher Canine/Human Interface at the Animal Care College. There was a fair bit in the course about stress and how to understand it, and it was as if someone had put a light on
Hi Wys,

I was wondering what books etc you'd recommend for the average dog owner to learn more on dog body language please?

Evie
x
Closed Thread
Page 4 of 70 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 14 54 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top