Come on Az, the problems with those dogs would be recified in 95% of cases with common sense, they were people who had spoiled, ruined dogs ruling them and letting them. Dogs on tables, spoon feeding etc.. spoiled brats. A dog that has not experienced any pet life, will be a way different story. When doing rescue, we had real problems with those dogs keep as breeding animals as opposed to those kept as family pets, like dealing with a completely different species.

I dont like the use of these collars, but as I said unless you know the dogs specifically and the problems you are faced with, a TV program is a bit unfair as a comparison. Thats my feelings anyway, I am not defending Denis or anyone else that promotes them, I am not remotely interested in the sale or use of them to be honest, but in my experience, I have seen dogs that may benefit from them, one such dog being a dog and stock killer.
Dawn.

Very well said in my opinion

Some of what you have written is not the words of a dog owner - it reads more like those of a dog trainer!

Also, um - you say the first trainer was "positive" and used postive methods?
What poppycock!!!

Who did you use, Fanny Adams?! sorry but using air horns, baking tins etc isn't the mark of suggestions by a positive trainer from the APDT

Of course if they did suggest these methods assuming this is genuine then I for one would suggest they get an extra assessment for membership.

Please PM me their name and I will contact them to put my mind at "rest"

Dawn - maybe you have information about this dog that I don't, but from what was posted the situation sounds very similar:
As I said, we can only go on what is posted and base that on what we can compare the situation to - from reading the posts it seems the dog is, as stated by the poster, "territorial and protective" of the household/family - indicative behaviour of dogs thinking they are 'top dog', head of the household, thinking it's their job to 'protect' the house and family.

Eraz
As a site we are still undecided as to whether we will join the fight to have them banned, but I must say whenever we read about their use/advocation in non-critical circumstances such as this we get closer to joining that cause.

Denis
You already have started, long befor I registered here.

You have 7 supporters out of a membership of 3714 and at least 2 of them, probably more, have a commercial conflict of interests. On top of that this ban thing has been going on since 1996, 10 years ago and before modern collars were even invented.

There are currently 1.5 million collars in the UK many of them, like this dog, whose problems have been caused and money taken by people calling themselves ‘positive trainers’.

Here’s your responses to your 10 year old ban e-collar campaign.

My main problem with them, too

CTH1013, please PM me the names of the previous trainers?

No Az I dont, it just appears that he hasnt had the upbringing of most family pets, so his problems may be far worse on sight than those of a pet dog that is used to people, kindness etc..

Wysiwyg said.
The "trainer" on the TV program used air horns didnt she?
Dawn.

Wysiwig
If there is a problem with the trainer a complaint should have been made to that organisation, I take it it was?

Denis
This and thousands of other cases where positive trainers have caused so much damage to the dog and family, cost so much money, and made the dog worse is going to the MP, my MP along with others and beyond.

The last thing I want to do is stir up trouble in a place where people already basically have formed their opinions; I am happy to agree to disagree in the end about whether these techniques are humane or not. What's really needed is an unbiased study in which stress levels of the dog are tested during normal use of an e-collar in training vs. other fear-inducing things like loud, surprising sounds like horns and rattle cans. Until such a study is done (and if an UNBIASED one has been done, please let me know), we cannot know with any degree of certainty whether such training is humane or not. I, knowing my dog and being able to read when he is feeling stress, pain, and discomfort (such as right now in the 35-degree heat, poor thing) did not read any of that on him during e-collar training--instead he looked happy and playful. I'm sure some other people here have had different experiences, and I accept those as valid--again, until a scientific study is done all we can do is go off our own experiences and agree to disagree.

Oh, yes, and I did see the Victoria Stilwell show -- she is lucky it worked because those very techniques didn't work for us. I almost wish I had videoed all the training we did so I could prove how hard we tried to solve the problem using every 'positive' technique known to man. I guess what works for some dogs doesn't work for others. A wrecking ball could've hit our house but it still wouldn't have distracted Wesley from going after a guest--that's how focussed he was. Who knows--maybe his previous owners even "trained" him to do this kind of "protective" work.

I would just very politely ask that you not support a ban of these tools on this site because even if in *some* circumstances they might not be what's called for, there are some circumstances in which they are nothing short of a life-saver (maybe no one here would have recommended euthenasia, but you have no idea how many such suggestions I received.) And again I'd like to say that if a 'positive' trainer guaranteed results or my money back, I may have tried several more before trying the e-collar. If you plan to lobby to ban the e-collar (a move which I would highly oppose), I suggest to all you trainers out there that you think about results-based payment, since there's no NHS for dogs and us student-loan paying, government-paid dog owners are left without many choices.

C.H.

P.S. Wysiwyg--if I used some jargon of a professional dog trainer, it's just because I've been so immersed in this topic for so long, reading many books about training and operative conditioning--and pretty much everyone in my family (partner, sister, cousin, ...) are PhDs or MAs in psychology--it rubs off! I'm currently reading The Truth About Dogs by Stephen Budiansky and I'm learning a lot from it as well.

Boderdawn--thank you for your support of the 'different techniques for different people' stance. I appreciate it.