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ooee
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19-07-2006, 01:07 PM
By the way, has anybody checked that this person is actually who they say they are?

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ip/moiralangston/CHal.html
leo
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19-07-2006, 02:49 PM
Most of whats been said has been before in the other thread that we had the other month.

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=37415
Bodhi
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19-07-2006, 03:31 PM
Erm - are you getting commision of e-collars R us?

Some of these posts sound like one of those sales pitches you see on rubbish home shopping channels.

"once upon a time...."
cth1013
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19-07-2006, 04:10 PM
I just want to say, I AM who I say I am, I wrote an email to that effect to the administrator of this forum who contacted me on my work email.

I have never, EVER "zapped" my dog "within an inch of his life." But both responsible dog owners and responsible parents know that you cannot raise a social being without punishments for bad behaviour. If Wesley understood English, I would try to explain to him what he did wrong and why, and take away some of his TV privileges. Dogs aren't human and they respond to physicality--that much I know. NOT pain--but a small amount of discomfort that feels roughly the same as pulling on a lead. I know because of his reactions. I've accidentally stepped on his paw before when he's been underfoot (not even my whole weight) and he jumped and yelped. He hasn't even come close to that on the ecollar. He just needed something, anything, to make the very process of lunging at and growling at guests unpleasant. That activity was apparently the best reward he could give himself, I have no clue why. Something had to intervene to make that experience less rewarding. The ecollar has accomplished that by introducing short nicks of discomfort (no yelping, no backing away--he was reacting like there was a fly buzzing near him) WHILE he's doing the behaviour. He stopped.

I don't believe I've just masked the behaviour, but only time will tell, of course. I think the problem is and will be solved because I've stopped using the collar inside the house (I still have it on him for safety), and now he approaches guests, sniffs them, and is happy. The only analogy I can think of is a teenager who's been treated very harshly in life and greets everyone by holding a knife to their throat. Then one day, the teen picks up the knife and instead of a smooth, comfortable handle it was prickly, like a pineapple--so he/she drops it. Because the knife was not easy to hold on to, the teen, for the first time in his/her life, has a pleasant interaction with an approaching person. The knife doesn't seem as necessary anymore.

I know this doesn't mean it'll never happen again--it might, and I'm always careful and on my guard. I also don't believe that the problem I had with my dog is the same as everyone else's problems. But I do know that aversive training was absolutely necessary in my case. I absolutely prefer the low stimulation of the e-collar to the prong collar or choke chain--it's NOT as painful and you have a lot more instantaneous control. If you never have any problems with your dog, I wouldn't tell you to get a collar to teach it to jump through hoops or roll over. But for me, so-called positive methods didn't work--I stuck with them for 9 months. Consistently. Daily training. And honestly, I don't know how "positive" it is to scare a dog "half to death" with an air-horn or falling, crashing baking tins right near him. These objects won't affect him physically, but he doesn't know that! He leaped and/or backed away when I used those methods.

I'm sorry if I posted this not according to etiquette, but Denis told me I could share my story and I thought it was a good idea. I don't spend a lot of times in forums and I just don't know what's expected of you. As for introducing myself, I live in London with a Westie that I recued from the brink of death last August (he was found with his fur completely matted and his legs stained with feces), and of course my partner! I truly believe in live-and-let-live, but the bottom line of what I was trying to say to people who are unsure is: PLEASE don't consider putting your dog down before you try the e-collar. It might not always work (I'm not an expert) but it worked for me. And if I sound like I'm selling these (sadly, I'm spending money on them instead), it's just because that's how you feel when you've practically given up on a beloved pet and something intervenes to give you a new lease on life.

C.H.
Borderdawn
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19-07-2006, 05:18 PM
I am as sceptical as the next person, but I find the OP to be quite genuine.
Dawn.
Clob
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19-07-2006, 05:29 PM
Bodhi
Erm - are you getting commision of e-collars R us?

Denis
1.
Hardly, I have booked a new model which is due for release in Sept, the total cost after customs and clearence will be around £430/40 + an accesory costing $99 + customs etc.

If I had not booked it now the first batch off the production line will run short pretty quick -


2.
What is being commissioned here is the competing commercial product called 'Positive Training', that’s not a method of training it is a commercially persuasive term behind selling the product. Professor Halberstam has sampled both products and given breif descriptions of both, hence the topic title.

What is clearly seen here are the writings of those who risk dogs lives and those who improve the quality of life of dog and family and ensure a permanent lifelong relationship in a loving home.

Professor Halberstam is also the only pet owner ever on this board able to give experience of both, here for all to see and make their own minds up. I am satisfied in my own mind the majority will do just that, after all, socially,this is predominantly an adult board.
eRaze
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19-07-2006, 05:33 PM
I sent an email to the email address listed in the Link Ooee posted and a reply was received confirming the message posted was written by the recipient of the email.

CH - as a newcomer to the dog scene on the web you will find the majority of British dog lovers see e-collars as cruel, and, you might even be aware, that many professional organisations such as the Kennel Club and the APDT are actually campaigning to get them banned.

The reason why you have received such comments is because people find e-collars morally repugnant. Especially when used for problems that could be rectified using more humane pain-free methods. Yes they might take a little longer but that is part and parcel of caring for and doing the right thing for something you love.

In all the time we've been here I don't think I've heard once, that someone has put their dog to sleep because of such behaviour, particularly from a small dog such as a Westie. People will argue there are so many other things that can be tried before ever letting it come to that. They would go on to say that first of all, you need to look at each 'problem' and remove the risk whilst you are working on sorting out the problems - so if the dog chases passers by, use common sense and keep it on a lead when in that situation. If the dog bites guests, use a muzzle until the problem is rectified etc etc. So by removing the 'risk' temporarily you can work on fixing the actual problem (hence no 'quick fix' is needed).

Obviously not knowing the exact problems and circumstances of your dog I can only surmise and compare your situation from the information you posted with that of other similar instances I know of.

As I mentioned in my original post, I saw just last week on television someone with a very similar problem with similarly sized dogs. The problems were rectified using humane techniques. The dog had bitten numerous guests, would act aggressively to anyone who came to the front door, would let no-one near the female owner (wife/mom) in fact the hubby wasn't even allowed to touch his wife without the dog 'going for' him.

The behaviourist used a combination of compressed air, water pistols and a bike horn, along with educating the family (in particular the wife) on how to treat the dog so it knows it's place in the household. These techniques worked. A shock collar was not necessary and this is one of the main reasons why so many people are against the use of them.

Personally I am open to hearing argument about them being used as a total last resort in life threatening circumstances only - but I, like many others, don't agree with them being used for problems that can be rectified using humane techniques. As a site we are still undecided as to whether we will join the fight to have them banned, but I must say whenever we read about their use/advocation in non-critical circumstances such as this we get closer to joining that cause.
Borderdawn
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19-07-2006, 05:43 PM
As you said Az, you cannot comment on individual dogs as you do not know the exact circumstances. I think it is unfair to judge somebody on the base of a TV program! ALL the dogs in that series were family pets, from the sound of it this Westie had a very different upbringing and was not molly coddled like all the dogs were in that show, those dogs were spoiled kids, nothing more.


I dont like those collars, I wouldnt use one of those collars, but I certainly do believe there are circumstances where they may be of benefit.
Dawn.
eRaze
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19-07-2006, 05:49 PM
Is it really that unfair? The TV program deals with different kinds of dogs each time it is aired. The dogs are real. The people are real. And more importantly the techniques used to correct the problems are real.
Wysiwyg
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19-07-2006, 05:55 PM
Unfortunately I am very sceptical, purely because Denis Carthy (also Clob, aka many others as so many of us know) has been known for going round forums posting stories to bolster his case. Unless I actually spoke to and saw this dog owner for myself, I'd take this with a pinch of salt.

That's what you get for sadly doing the equivalent I suppose of "crying wolf" on so many forums - in the end nothing is believed!!

One last thing - the bit about the APDT rip off - that is pure Denis Carthy so not sure why any owner who is genuine would even mention it. Seems too much of a coincidence to me.

If there is a problem with the trainer a complaint should have been made to that organisation, I take it it was?

If not please don't accuse any organisation on a public forum of "ripping off" anyone!!!!
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