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Chris
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31-08-2006, 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by uncllou
Let's remember that the first trainers that Ms. Halberstrom consulted billed themselves as "positive trainers." Yet they used methods that others here say are NOT those of "positive trainers." It's apparent that there is no single definition of it. And so I ask for yours.
So you thought there was more than one previous trainer as well Lou????

Curious
Clob
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31-08-2006, 11:43 PM
Brierley
I can't find anywhere that says this behaviourist/trainer is Kennel Club accredited.

Clob (Denis)
That fits, I doubt very much indeed they knew about any accreditation to KC, it would mean nothing to them and for that matter I am not sure they would even have heard of KC.

People arn't interested in KC unless they are showing or something, the only usefull thing it has to offer most pet owners is the micro chip is good value and a good service, the rest is just for its own commercial gain, it's nothing in training except very low levels.

Kc gold is a pre-beginers obedience thing or puppy level, but if somone can sell the idea to a naive pet owner its quite lucrative as they must pay for bronze and silver before the gold, they have to pay for and take the other two before the gold pre beginers/puppy level.
Lucky Star
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31-08-2006, 11:44 PM
Oh PLEASE you put out so much rubbish it's laughable.

My dog would challenge the patience of a saint yet I seem to manage okay without zapping him.

We expect dogs to live in our environment and be like us but often they're not and why would they be? So what do we do? Control by means of pain? NO! Not necessary.
MazY
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31-08-2006, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
I PROMISE you (and any other owner with a dog similar to mine will agree) - stick a pain-inducing device on my dog and you will have a rebellion on your hands. He might INITIALLY comply because you keep zapping him (or however you like to dress it up) but he will remember ... and you will NOT have a good-natured dog on your hands in the long run. You will turn him into a miserable, sulky and possibly devious dog. No way would I do that to him and if you think intelligent, confident dogs respond to this you do not understand them.
I think that about sums the entire issue with these collars. There is a saying in the work environment, which can be equally applied to the dog ownership world. Anyone can be a boss, but it takes something completely different to be a leader.

I have absolutely no doubt that for some dogs, in some cases, e-collars and other such, in my view, intently inhumane and outdated methods can and will stop a dog from carrying out whichever problem behaviour you care to pick upon.

However, it's not really training a dog, it's bullying a dog into submission. Again, there is a huge landscape of difference. Let's take a barking example: Typically, if I were to address a barking issue with a dog, logic alone would tell me that in order to stop the behaviour, I also need to teach the dog what is the correct behaviour instead of the barking. Many people, again in my view, make this mistake, not only with dogs but with children too. They say they want the action stopped but don't then say what they would like to happen instead.

The e-collars and such like don't really cater for this required follow-on. They implement a shock reaction only, and that, in turn, is supposed to shock the dog into just stopping what it is doing. And it will work; again, in some cases. However, whichever way you look at it, and even if you completely ignore the cruelty aspect of it, you still have a maladjusted dog. What does the dog do when there's an intruder now? It can't bark for fear of having volts run through the body.

So now, you have a dog which is silent but only because it's too scared to not be. What you really want is a dog that is silent at the right times, and defers the judgement of what to do instead of barking to you, its leader. Not just stand there with absolutely no options whatsoever. Not only that, but you want the dog to defer the decision to you because it trusts you, your judgement, and knows that you will make the right decision, and that good will come from the decision that you make on its behalf. There is just absolutely no way you can show any of these by zapping your dog. None whatsoever. Period.

I sincerely doubt, with the utmost passion, that there is a single problematic dog behaviour which requires any of these inhumane devices, that couldn't be solved without one. Yes, it may take a little longer in some cases, but training a dog is not a race and it's not meant to be convenient. If you want both of those, get a bike to ride instead.
Chris
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31-08-2006, 11:45 PM
Denis, me thinks you, or your client, actually clarifies extactly what did happen and who she saw before your participation in 'training' her dog because there seems to be an awful lot of discrepancies.

Perhaps also you could clarify how you came to the conclusion that this trainer is Kennel Club accredited. Your client hasn't mentioned it. This is not another of your assumptions is it????
Chris
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31-08-2006, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Clob
Kc gold is a pre-beginers obedience thing or puppy level, but if somone can sell the idea to a naive pet owner its quite lucrative as they must pay for bronze and silver before the gold, they have to pay for and take the other two.
I think you need to do a bit of research Denis. The Good Citizens Scheme is a progressive scheme which is why there are different levels - much the same as in Schutzhund, a sport in which I believe you are interested.

A Kennel Club listed club does not mean that the instructor is Kennel Club accredited. All it means is that the club offers training for the Good Citizen Scheme.

An easy mistake. I still wonder why your client couldn't contact the trainer when she attended her classes for weeks
Clob
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31-08-2006, 11:50 PM
She first did an obedience training course with the first trainer, then they called that trainer in a behaviourist role to sort out the home problems.

After trying all that for a while (no idea how long) they either asked the vet or alternatively the vet suggested someone refered from his practice but they only saw that one twice, same results but that one only charged £25 each time.
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31-08-2006, 11:53 PM
Thank you GSD Lover - you have put into words exactly what I know to be fact. My dog is probably exactly the sort of dog they would try to control with these e-collars but I KNOW what the outcome would be and it wouldn't be pleasant.

In the last few days we managed to get pulling on the lead under control. How? Not by shouting or demanding or yanking or using choke chains (or e-collars) but by me simply refusing to budge until he came back to me and stopped his forging ahead. Bless him, he wasn't doing it because he is stroppy but because he is enthusiastic and eager to get on and explore and it was my fault for not understanding and tolerating this before.

Forceful yanking and admonishing etc. only had the opposite effect. In fact anything that challenges him makes him want to find a way out/overcome it.
Chris
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31-08-2006, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Clob
She first did an obedience training course with the first trainer, then they called that trainer in a behaviourist role to sort out the home problems.

After trying all that for a while (no idea how long) they either asked the vet or alternatively the vet suggested someone refered from his practice but they only saw that one twice, same results but that one only charged £25 each time.
So she did see more than one trainer?? I thought you said the original trainer then charged her extra to attend her basic obedience classes

I'm still a little baffled - your client says that she saw a behaviourist, then read that it takes time and patience to train a dog so went to training classes IN THAT ORDER!!

So this second trainer, the one who only charged £25 a visit - which training association do they belong to????

Are you ready to 'phone a friend' yet Denis???
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01-09-2006, 12:01 AM
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