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mjfromga
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Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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01-01-2015, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
Oh please where did I mention you, not every post is about you & your training method.

Please explain how a dog "knows" what the word "No" means ? It knows by some means that it should stop what it is doing, just like it should know the word "heel" means walk alongside nicely on a slack lead. In which case why do my dogs walk to heel nicely never having hear me actually tell them to ? The only thing they know is that they walk close to me, hear a click & get rewarded, I've never used the word heel, just like I have never used the word "No" to stop a behaviour, yet I can get my dogs to stop behaviours with a low cough ! maybe your dogs understand the human language & mine simply know what is rewarded & what isn't by instinct. Must try the shouting at them & using human language with my next puppy, will just have to learn Romanian before he/she gets here, otherwise I will fail totally
Man, you're really reaching. Unlike you, I don't go saying people's methods don't work. I don't spend all day shouting at dogs, I rarely shout at anybody, be it dog or person. I do not "shout" at dogs, anyway. It merely hurts their ears.

My Nigredo has a perfect heel with only a hand signal, a flattened palm, his "Heel" command is to stop. He does know sit, stay, and about 16 other verbal commands, and he also responds to a no in the cases when I have to use it.
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Dibbythedog
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01-01-2015, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post

That means re-home or take to a shelter. Doesn't mean kill or just release or something, that is just the way it's said here.

.

Surely you must be aware of the thousands and thousands of unwanted dogs that are put to sleep in the USA every year ?
Why dont you adopt small sweet tempered dogs that suit your circumstances or another species of pet.
The older I get, the smaller my dogs get. I cant manage big dogs now.
I'm not going to add any more as I'm assuming you've heard it all before.

You said that people have been horrid to you and it hasn't changed your behaviour so I guess that's an example of how positive punishment doesnt always work .
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Dibbythedog
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01-01-2015, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post

As far as training using words is concerned, it is the consistency of the sound that it is important, not the word that you use. I personally like the word "No!!" because it is short, sweet and sharp and some assertion and emphasis can be put onto the first letter, the consonant "N". You could just as easily say "Boo!" or "******" or any other short sound. Or indeed, do a Cesar Millan "oi!" or "tsssk". But I like the word No! said with emphasis and assertion, and I will continue to use my No simply because it works for me, and more importantly it works on my dogs! Coupled with a pointed finger, it is very effective at instantly stopping unwanted behaviour.
Agree with you that consistancy is important.
Generally, dogs respond to words that have harder sounding consonants such as B or K . You might be better of saying Boo rather than No .

Milan's tsk or oi is more of an interrupter or what they call a startle in the States. If I want to quietly get my dogs attention i sometimes Psst.

yes , you can say any word you like but the dog has to learn what it means , the same as we do when we learn a foreign language. It can end up as nagging and the dog just blotting it out.

Most people raise their voice when saying No and say it louder and louder each time till the dog stops, The dog stops because of the loud tone of their voice also using body language pointing in combination with a loud harsh tone can be seen as threatening rather than the word No itself. AFAIR this is positive punishment.

If you say the word No in a soft normal voice and no gesture will your dogs stop the unwanted behaviour?

I am going to re read How Dogs Learn by Birch and baily as it explains things like this and I need to refresh my memory.
.
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mjfromga
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01-01-2015, 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
Surely you must be aware of the thousands and thousands of unwanted dogs that are put to sleep in the USA every year ?
Why dont you adopt small sweet tempered dogs that suit your circumstances or another species of pet.
The older I get, the smaller my dogs get. I cant manage big dogs now.
I'm not going to add any more as I'm assuming you've heard it all before.

You said that people have been horrid to you and it hasn't changed your behaviour so I guess that's an example of how positive punishment doesnt always work .
Why would I change for people I don't know or care about? They don't even know me. I can eat negativity, it's all around me. I'm an adult, I'll get over it all. How is that relevant to anything regarding family pets?

My dogs are fine and we've only ever given one dog back. We gave him back because he and my other dog didn't get along and we knew it wasn't going to work. He stayed here 3 days and then went back. He was from a no kill, and my current adopted puppy is from a no kill.

I'm not as bad as you think, but then again you do not know me. Jade did "bite" my mother when she tried to add water to a bowl near Jade eating (food aggression she had never shown before), and I did not get rid of her.

My mother kicked her out of sheer impulse reaction (it was not done to deliberately be mean) and I did help to make sure it never happened again with some gentle training. She has been fine since and it was nearly two years ago.

I would NEVER hurt a dog unless I was defending my life or the life of one of my family member or pets. She didn't inflict a wound (merely a small red spot), and therefore I did not get rid of her.

That is why I always try to add "attacked or badly bitten" when I speak on my stance on dog aggression towards family members. I will try and train away minor stuff, and I let other stuff slide sometimes, but no ugly bites or vicious attacks.

Again, I'm not as bad as you think. I'm a very reasonable and tolerant dog owner as a whole now. As for adopting small dogs, I'm not a fan of small dogs. I enjoy my big dogs and as long as I can afford it, will own them forever. Also, I am not old. I am 25, and I can manage big dogs just fine.

My Nigredo is as sweet tempered as it gets, he would never bite anybody and he is nearly 40 kg. Also we have two cats. I'm not as bad as some people try to make me out to be, and I'm going to leave it at that.
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Gnasher
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01-01-2015, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
Agree with you that consistancy is important.
Generally, dogs respond to words that have harder sounding consonants such as B or K . You might be better of saying Boo rather than No .

Milan's tsk or oi is more of an interrupter or what they call a startle in the States. If I want to quietly get my dogs attention i sometimes Psst.

yes , you can say any word you like but the dog has to learn what it means , the same as we do when we learn a foreign language. It can end up as nagging and the dog just blotting it out.

Most people raise their voice when saying No and say it louder and louder each time till the dog stops, The dog stops because of the loud tone of their vouice also using body language pointing in combination with a loud harsh tone can be seen as threatening rather than the word No itself. AFAIR this is positive punishment.

If you say the word No in a soft normal voice and no gesture will your dogs stop the unwanted behaviour?

I am going to re read How Dogs Learn by Birch and baily as it explains things like this and I need to refresh my memory.
.
Hi dibby

In a nutshell, to answer your question about saying no in a soft, normal voice, no, that would not work with my ben ... he is 8 or 9 years old, and we rescued him nearly 4 years ago. For the first 3 years of his life he had been tied up outside with no shelter. He then had subsequent homes which varied from indulgence to fear to aggressive treatment. The dog was a mess when we got him, dangerously unpredictable and untrustworthy with humans. His breeding is low content wolf x alaskan malamute and he needed a loving home with firm boundaries, which is exactly what he got ... saying no in a gentle voice was not an option he needed firm and clear signals. Now he trusts us and we him we can use a far gentler tone of voice and usually that is sufficient however we still need to be more assertive sometimes and thats fine. Horses for courses.
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Jakesmummy
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02-01-2015, 08:42 AM
I've been on this site for a month I think.and what I've noticed is when someone gives a point of view ,someone else will pick it to bits instead of just adding there own.
It's like a room full of 14 years olds some days.
Why can't we all just reply to the person asking for help with out trying to turn it into a soap opera.
Now go on pick that to bits I care not a jot . And btw it's not aimed at anyone person just stating my point of view x
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Gnasher
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02-01-2015, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Jakesmummy View Post
I've been on this site for a month I think.and what I've noticed is when someone gives a point of view ,someone else will pick it to bits instead of just adding there own.
It's like a room full of 14 years olds some days.
Why can't we all just reply to the person asking for help with out trying to turn it into a soap opera.
Now go on pick that to bits I care not a jot . And btw it's not aimed at anyone person just stating my point of view x
And a very valid point it is too ... jolly well said
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JoedeeUK
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02-01-2015, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Hi dibby

In a nutshell, to answer your question about saying no in a soft, normal voice, no, that would not work with my ben ... he is 8 or 9 years old, and we rescued him nearly 4 years ago. For the first 3 years of his life he had been tied up outside with no shelter. He then had subsequent homes which varied from indulgence to fear to aggressive treatment. The dog was a mess when we got him, dangerously unpredictable and untrustworthy with humans. His breeding is low content wolf x alaskan malamute and he needed a loving home with firm boundaries, which is exactly what he got ... saying no in a gentle voice was not an option he needed firm and clear signals. Now he trusts us and we him we can use a far gentler tone of voice and usually that is sufficient however we still need to be more assertive sometimes and thats fine. Horses for courses.
You forgot the gentle use of your e collar didn't you ?
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JoedeeUK
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02-01-2015, 11:49 AM
Milan's tsk or oi is more of an interrupter or what they call a startle in the States. If I want to quietly get my dogs attention i sometimes Psst.
Which is backed up site unseen with a zap from an e collar off screen by Millan
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JoedeeUK
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02-01-2015, 11:50 AM
No one has explained to me how their dog instinctively understands the human language, I must be missing something
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