register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
JoedeeUK
Dogsey Veteran
JoedeeUK is offline  
Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Sorry I think you are very wrong. It can often be a breed thing, my friend who has 16 and has had over 10 for many years breeds collies and never saw it till recently when certain crosses were rescued.

Now she does.

Are you saying dogs don't have a survival instinct at all or are you saying it is different from that of a wolf---and if so how does it differ??

rune
IMHO I don't believe I am wrong

Non captive Wolves have a high survival drive because they do not have humans to supply their food & shelter, domestic dogs on the other have evolved to be able to produce human pleasing behaviours that result in reward in one form or another.

Some breeds have a high prey drive that means they are better at surviving if alone than others-for example: some toy breeds are not physically able to survive away from humans, some of the "primitive"breeds really do not need humans to survive & then in the middle are the having had their prey drive increased by selective breeding.

In the natural world the Wolf does not breed for looks or working ability, it breeds to pass on its genes & for the species to survive-regardless of appearance(hence the colours seen in some wolf species)the wolves with the strongest instinct survive the weakest don't QED
Reply With Quote
rune
Dogsey Veteran
rune is offline  
Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
IMHO I don't believe I am wrong

Non captive Wolves have a high survival drive because they do not have humans to supply their food & shelter, domestic dogs on the other have evolved to be able to produce human pleasing behaviours that result in reward in one form or another.

Some breeds have a high prey drive that means they are better at surviving if alone than others-for example: some toy breeds are not physically able to survive away from humans, some of the "primitive"breeds really do not need humans to survive & then in the middle are the having had their prey drive increased by selective breeding.

In the natural world the Wolf does not breed for looks or working ability, it breeds to pass on its genes & for the species to survive-regardless of appearance(hence the colours seen in some wolf species)the wolves with the strongest instinct survive the weakest don't QED
So you are saying that all dogs are different and some DO have an ability to survive without humans and therefore have a high survival drive. As do wolves.

So you are agreeing that SOME dogs in SOME situations show survival behaviours simiular to that of wolves. If you don't think they are similar can you specify how they dioffer?

If not we are saying the same thing.

rune
Reply With Quote
wilbar
Dogsey Veteran
wilbar is offline  
Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Wilbar---I think for the majority of dogs and owners it has very little relevance----but it sometimes can have.

Which is why it is useful to know about it and not dump it out of hand.

rune
I'm very happy to go along with that.

All reading, studying & research can be useful ~ but to look at with a critical eye & not just blind faith.

We all have differing views on what's going on with our own dogs, based on personal experience. But IMO it can be dangerous to then assume this is how all dogs behave or just try to fit that theory onto all dogs; & it can be equally dangerous to fail to look at other explanations, in the light of new research/theories, for what we've always assumed with our own dogs.

If I was in the position of looking at my dogs as having leader/alpha/beta etc status, but then some things happened that I could not explain by that theory ~ I would most definitely start to question that theory.
Reply With Quote
rune
Dogsey Veteran
rune is offline  
Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
I'm very happy to go along with that.

All reading, studying & research can be useful ~ but to look at with a critical eye & not just blind faith.

We all have differing views on what's going on with our own dogs, based on personal experience. But IMO it can be dangerous to then assume this is how all dogs behave or just try to fit that theory onto all dogs; & it can be equally dangerous to fail to look at other explanations, in the light of new research/theories, for what we've always assumed with our own dogs.

If I was in the position of looking at my dogs as having leader/alpha/beta etc status, but then some things happened that I could not explain by that theory ~ I would most definitely start to question that theory.
Thats interesting thoughts----so far I can explain all that I feel goes on---but when Etta started to play with Saff I was a bit flummoxed----then she started to push Saff into playing when Saff was obviously reluctant. Then Saff was pts with a brain tumor (or something with similar symptoms.) So now I think I know why that was happening.

Every evening Celt has a stand off with Champa, sometimes I interere as the noise annoys me, I always remove Celt from the eye contact and the position if I do interfere. Champ is 12 now and eventually I think Celt will push enough to remove him from where he is---but he can't do it without my backing.

When Champa took over from Merlin I didn't even notice it happening, I just noticed when Champa came for a fuss and Merlin removed himself instead of getting rid of Champa.

The bitchres really are not as obvious in my experience.

rune
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
David Mech has a much better insight into natural Wolf behaviour than Shaun Ellis will ever have, his wolves did not roam free & were the products of an artifical wolf pack, kept in captivity here in the UK.

Having had the privilege of seeing Wolves living in their natural environs their behaviour is totally different to those animals kept in zoos & wildlife parks here in the UK or anywhere else in the world.

Puppy behaviour is shaped first by the mother & the siblings whilst with the breeder & subsequently by the new owner & other dogs. Natural Wolf behaviour is shaped solely by interaction wither their parents & siblings.
I disagree - David Mech has OBSERVED wolves, wild wolves it is true, but living in an artificial environment. Shaun Ellis LIVED with wild wolves, and was accepted by them as a pack member.

You are obviously a nurture girl, not a nature girl, so we will just have to agree to disagree.
Reply With Quote
JoedeeUK
Dogsey Veteran
JoedeeUK is offline  
Location: God's Own County
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,584
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
So you are saying that all dogs are different and some DO have an ability to survive without humans and therefore have a high survival drive. As do wolves.

So you are agreeing that SOME dogs in SOME situations show survival behaviours simiular to that of wolves. If you don't think they are similar can you specify how they dioffer?
If not we are saying the same thing.

rune
You cannot compare the two really

Natural wolves do not depend on humans for food-dogs do & if left alone will first seek food & shelter near humans & then if this is not available will resort to hunting.

Domestic dogs on the whole are savengers & not hunters-even the hounds(according to the hunt supporters around here)do not hunt the fox, rabbits etc for food but for the chase !!

Wolves hunt to eat -no other reason
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I`ve a fair idea what you mean by it, Wilbar I somehow don`t think it`s the same as what the I own a Wolf brigade mean.
Why sneer? Don't knock it 'till you've tried it!
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Can some body define "omega" dog to me please. What would one expect from such a dog in a home where there are other dogs?

Oh, "captive" Wolves are not the same as a domesticated pet!
If you are sincerely interested, which I somehow doubt, then I will try and explain to you.

The wolf pack is very structured. Each wolf has a place, a job, according to its rank. Obviously, the omega is the lowest rank, but nonetheless plays a vital role. The omega may be a diffuser - he or she will play the fool, or take some other course of action, to try and break up fights or disputes that have broken out between other wolves. He or she will bravely die into the melee, frantically wiggling, squirming, rolling over, tongue flicking in and out in a frantic attempt to protect himself/herself from the inevitable bites, whilst at the same time doing everything to diffuse the situation. Gucci is a diffuser - when Ben and Tai kick off and have their mock fights, which are noisy and very violent, but never serious and never result in injury (although Ben managed to stick his claw through poor Tai's eye the other day by mistake!), Gucci will wade in, jumping up and down like a meer cat on his back legs, frantically sinking his teeth into first Ben's tail, then Tai's in an attempt to stop them. It usually succeeds. Tai in particular has an extremely sensitive tail, due to the hook of bone he has at the end, so he usually rounds on the little man with a roar that bowls him over, but it diffuses the big boys and peace reigns once more.

So the omega is the fall guy for the pack.
Reply With Quote
Tupacs2legs
Dogsey Veteran
Tupacs2legs is offline  
Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 12:22 PM
.... slightly o/t... but out of my 'wolfdog' and sibes i defo know which would survive without humans...or have no desire to seek them out
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
01-10-2010, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Sorry I think you are very wrong. It can often be a breed thing, my friend who has 16 and has had over 10 for many years breeds collies and never saw it till recently when certain crosses were rescued.

Now she does.

Are you saying dogs don't have a survival instinct at all or are you saying it is different from that of a wolf---and if so how does it differ??

rune
Dogs have every bit of a survival instinct as wolves. ANY animal, including ourselves, have an enormous instinct for self-preservation, only over-ruled by their instinct to protect their own young. There is no difference between ANY species as far as survival is concerned.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 5 of 16 « First < 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 15 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top