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Wysiwyg
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12-05-2009, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Dont forget the "experts" told you to do it, they will defend it to the hilt.

Most aggression and nervous aggression issues are made worse by castration.
Yes this is correct, but context is important too. A friend who has rehabbed a lovely gsd found that castration helped a lot in that particular situation although she'd not normally have even considered it


...a Vets cure all is castration! If the dog runs off castrate it, if the dog guards food, castrate it, if the dog barks, castrate it, if it jumps up, castrate it!! Bottom line is they are NOT behaviour experts
Totally agree with you there Borderdawn

Good behaviourists are aware of what neutering might do, but bad ones may not be. However there is so much to be taken into account with each case. I have my own views on what has happened with Woody and for me personally it's not so much related to castration but more what has happened with the learning experience

Wys
x
valandra
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12-05-2009, 09:12 AM
Aawww Pidge, i knew you were having a little trouble with Woody but i didnt know it was this bad. Im really sorry to hear that your house is being destroyed and that he is showing a lot of aggression but you must still remember that he is just a pup and still needs to learn his place in the 'pack'.

It sounds as if he is really pushing the boundaries big style. Just remember to keep calm when he does things, if you feel yourself getting stressed or angry with him go into a different room or just take a few moments to yourself to calm down. Like people have said on here, they feel the vibes you are giving them.

Pepsi started to stray a few weeks ago, but as soon as i realised it i re-enforced everything i was telling her. Even if it was something as little as a 'SIT'. If she didnt do it i would push her bottom down and make her do it. She is a lot better after more training.

Continue with the training hun, im sure it will pay off. And im sure your little man cub will turn out to be a great erm... man so to speak lol. You know what i mean

(((((((Hugz))))))
Jackie
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12-05-2009, 09:13 AM
Minihaha :
I hesitate to say anything in case it is seen as criticisms but Pidge try to stand back and look at the bigger picture.
A lot of Woody's behaviour sounds like typical working springer behaviour to me and is very similar to Zak's, but he hasn't had aggression issues ( I think he would have had under certain circumstances ).

Woody is only a puppy still and has seen many sudden changes in his routine and lifestyle. He had your undivided attention all day every day and went from this situation to spending long periods of time during the day some days in a crate, then in a travel crate at night and on a house like in the evening. Some puppies may cope with this kind of restriction , others won't (particularly those with strong working instincts), they can become destructive and frustrated and frustration can find other oulets in things like aggression.

Woody sounds a confused puppy . Pidge , I know you have done your best, some puppies are very hard work.

I am only saying this to give you some idea as to what the cause of the problem may be . I won't offer any advice, your head must be spinning with it....xx
I have to agree with Minni here in much of what she says.

Pigde... almost ALL Woody's behaviour is normal puppy behaviour, apart from the food aggression..BUT even there it can be worked on.


I know you have a behaviourist working with you..but to be honest Pigde..if he/she is advising having Woody PTS.. for the behavioural traits he is showing...I would be looking else where.

I would expect any professional to first... advise me to seek veterinary investigation, to see if any health problems are causing any of his behaviour.......have you been down that route.


I would also take up Shona offer , before you go down the road of even thinking of having him euthanized, as he is far from that stage, and I dont believe he is un-re homeable... I wonder who told you that




Originally Posted by Pidge View Post


Mate, you have no idea how hard this is. Neil described it earlier as abit like having a disabled child. I hope I don't cause offence saying that, especially to Elaine but it really is. He needs 24/7 attention and time and support and there are good days and bad days.

Sorry Pidge, with respect, and correct me if I am wrong,, you are both first time dog owners, along with having no children, and comparing him to a disabled child is offensive...and maybe shows a little naivety on your part in what is involved in owing and bringing up young pups.


Having a puppy any puppy is a full time job, that needs 24/7 attention... and you can compare it to bringing up children ALL children... as those who have them will tell you it is also a full time job, where you need to have eyes in your backside and never close them!!


Originally Posted by Pidge View Post


Shona, he basically has a problem with the following:

1. Unable to settle in the home - scratches and gnaws at walls and coffee table in frustration, doesn't like going on bed or in crate. Gets over tired and over excited and doesn't know how to switch off. I have to stroke him soothingly or time him out in kitchen to settle him almost every night.

2. If told to do something he doesn't want to do, like get off sofa/bed etc he will growl and then bite, bearing teeth and gums.



3. Food aggression - unable to go near him when eating and get knuckle bones or denta stix (now banned) off him, if necc as he bites us.

4. He also barks at us when over excited and being told to do something he doesn't want to do.

The biting is the scary bit as it's now got quite bad.

.

I understand the biting is getting you down, and from what you are saying, I get the feeling you are becoming a little frightened of him... and he will be able to pick up on this... he will be reading your vibes and he knows he has one up on you.

Number 1 ... did you read the article I posted on rescue spaniels..Woody is beginning to show some classic signs of frustration, shown by working dogs who are not in the job they are bred for.

Some dogs have more working instinct than others,and Woody many be one of them, and I think you really need to ask yourself, can you provide that job for him.

The other points are all classic bolshy pup syndrome... all can be fixed, the food aggression needs a little more work, but I thought you where making progress.


I think some of Woody's problems are breed related.. but some are also typically puppy related..

The barking for attention, trying his luck with you , all can be worked on... but his working instinct may need a little more thinking about... and you need to be honest with yourselves as to whether you can provide it.

On the plus note, if you can get past the puppy stage , and get all your problems sorted , you will reap the benefits later on.

Believe me, Having Boxer puppies , what you described with Woody.. you can tenfold that... and they NEVER grow up


But please dont consider Euthanasia... he is a long way from that.. it might be you have to re home him to a working home...

But see your vet, have bloods done see if any medical problems are causing any of his behaviour.. and to be honest, if your behaviourist, has not suggested that... find another..

Because, if your behaviourist is giving up on him now, I would be asking how good he is.

And again...take up on Shona`s offer!!!!
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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12-05-2009, 09:33 AM
as ever wys is correct
you dont need all this advice, you already have help, and there is loads more if you need it
you need to know that others have been where you are, look in rescues there are lots of teenage dogs their that the owners decided they couldnt handle
but also there are lots of people who stuck with it, being fair and consistant with their dog and came out the other end with a dog anyone would be proud to own
many days mia makes me cry, but she also makes me laugh lots too, and i can see the great dog she has the ability to become if we can both get through this bit.
i know you can make it hun
IsoChick
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12-05-2009, 09:34 AM
Oh Em, what an awful time you seem to be having!

But, there are people on here who have been through this with their dog(s) and have lived through it and are still here to tell the tale!!

Although not a Springer, Max was a hooligan when he was younger. We were first time dog owners and really not prepared for a mini-whirlwind!!

Max destroyed stuff, widdled on it, dug it up etc; he's bitten me and OH several times, he's almost broken my nose by knocking me over on purpose. He's bitten several dog trainers and 2 vets, and I know at least 1 dog walker in the area that refuses to walk him! This was all before he was 1!!

He's pulled on the lead so much he has passed out, knocked unsuspecting bystanders over and if he is on the lead will attack any other dog within a 20ft radius.

BUT.... I have been persistant, and tried to be consistent (and that's the hardest bit). I've tried so many techniques (and I won't even go into the 'squirting water into his face one') and so many techniques have failed.

However, he is 3 now and has calmed down a lot (for this read - he is mental like a normal Boxer). There are still issues (regarding vets, on-lead walking and dog trainers) but he is more like a normal dog now.

I have no idea what we did wrong with him, although I suspect it wasn't any one thing in particular, but it took a while to get his exercise and food right.

Just keep persevering, honestly. No-one ever told us that we should think that Max be PTS in the future - these things, caught at a young age are surmountable!!
youngstevie
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12-05-2009, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
And here is my que
He sounds very similar to Ralph at that age. Ralph was totally out of control, some think this is an exadgeration but trust me..the house was destroyed, the garden no more, my cats never appeared, we never got visitors, he escaped, he urinated everywhere, he'd bite and growl whenever challenged to do something, he'd bark in a tantrum to the point we nearly got evicted and no longer speak to our neighbours, he nipped me numerous times, he nearly got us both killed when on a winter walk he bombed into a very high and strong flowing river and got out of his depths..i had to dive in to save him and snagged myself on a tree, luckily someone was walking past and could hear my shouts. He put me in hospital with a fracture to my wrist from pulling so much, gave my friend concussion from repeatedly jumping all over them..they put their head down and he did damage, erm..the list is endless. He nailed a neighbours cat to the point it was pts, and i really had enough..thought I couldn't handle him anymore. Really felt this was it.
The key is NO FEAR. And to not worry about breaking the rules as it were. You HAVE to be on top, constantly. It's not easy but if he's this way inclined you simply can't leave him to have a minute of..unstructured life. Every second of life has to be structured and organised, even play. There must be a clear outline for eating, sleeping, playing, training, discipline, love etc, Woody must be aware of this routine and how it lies..and most importantly, he must be made aware of HOW and WHEN to switch off.
His aggression does have, and I will not be subtle, stand a chance of spiralling. An ESS with a bad temper is a nightmare, they are a strong dog, with a high drive, and a lot of ability to jump ver high and have a lot of speed-that mixed with anger is a recipe for a serious amount of damage in a minimal amount of time. There must be a "mutual respect", not a you dominating him thing but he must learn it's simply not acceptable to act in such a way. The NILF way worked with Ralph, it was hard hard hard work but he's come..fairly well now.
ESS are difficult, Ralph was my first..and truly it's difficult to find this balance when their pups of what's acceptable to let them get away with, they may look soppy but they are INCREDIBLY calculated and given an inch will take a mile!
I enjoyed reading that Luke....thank you. Reminded me so much of a rescue Collie I took on years back..........she turned out really well in the end too
Luke
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12-05-2009, 11:04 AM
People just see ESS as the trusty soppy spaniel, to fetch the paper and lie infront of the fire..really they are so calculated and scheming! They won't do nothing for nothing, and it's putting this balance in place of how they learn what to do to get what you want them to have. As others have said, a lot is typical young adult behaviour..pushing his limits, trying his luck, its just keeping on top of this behaviour and making sure he doesn't get too into his stride with any unwanted behaviour.
Tassle
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12-05-2009, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Yes this is correct, but context is important too. A friend who has rehabbed a lovely gsd found that castration helped a lot in that particular situation although she'd not normally have even considered it




Totally agree with you there Borderdawn

Good behaviourists are aware of what neutering might do, but bad ones may not be. However there is so much to be taken into account with each case. I have my own views on what has happened with Woody and for me personally it's not so much related to castration but more what has happened with the learning experience

Wys
x
Very true.
Shona
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12-05-2009, 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
People just see ESS as the trusty soppy spaniel, to fetch the paper and lie infront of the fire..really they are so calculated and scheming! They won't do nothing for nothing, and it's putting this balance in place of how they learn what to do to get what you want them to have. As others have said, a lot is typical young adult behaviour..pushing his limits, trying his luck, its just keeping on top of this behaviour and making sure he doesn't get too into his stride with any unwanted behaviour.
I really felt for you when you were having your moments with your ESS, much of what pidge is going through is so similar to the things you delt with,
its nice for owners of the same breed who have had similar problems to help.

I think I have missed a lot of whats been going on with woody, due to things going on here and not being on line as much,

but it does sound like your doing a lot with him, eg gundog training, obed, behaviourist,
you may find you will get very conflicting advice from three very diff trainers,

if I were you,

I would write down a list of the problems he has had,

then add to that list, which trainer helped, which made no real diff, or if they made things worse,

if there is a clear trainer out in front, who seems to make more headway with woody, who you like and trust you could only use the advice that trainer gave you, but still continue to do other things with him.

sometimes you can over stimulate a young pup, wys would be better to talk to about that sort of thing,

hang in there, try not to get wound up, x
Reisu
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12-05-2009, 11:24 AM
aw pidgey... i know you'll get through it. you try so hard with your little man it'd be impossible not to!! you can get over any dog problem with consistency and patience, i really believe that, try not to loose your confidence and you'll end up with a gorgeous dog that we'll all be jealous of you be good woody, stop stressing your mummy out!!

Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
the thing that works really well with him, as I have just done is '''time out''. He was gnawing and scrabbling at the coffee table. He wouldn't stop and was hyper and panting so I just scooped him into my arms, carried him to the kitchen and shut the door. I left him there until I heard him flop down by the door and relax then I let him out. He came out, shuffled to his usual spot by my feet and has been there sleeping soundly ever since.

No idea if this is good or not.
Sounds great to me!! You let him know that's not what you wanted, you put him in a position where he could calm down and then he got rewarded by being allowed back in with you and he chose to continue to be calm, keep it up, he will get the idea that he can't always do as he pleases and stop pushing eventually xx
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