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ClaireandDaisy
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29-03-2008, 09:31 AM
At my club they do agility primarily because it teaches control of the dog In other words, sometimes we do obstacles then put the dog in a sit or down the other side - or a course where the obstacles are radically altered (so the dog and handler have to problem-solve) Imagine tunnels joined in a long figure of 8 - with one bit going over the top of another (changing levels) or a walkway with a jump at the end, followed immediately by the Table. Now that`s fun to do! Last week we did a course where they made a weave of low jumps. Of course each of these has to be done with the safety of the dog in mind, so can`t be done fast.
Maybe this idea could be adapted as it would suit the `slower` dogs?
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Mahooli
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29-03-2008, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by colliemad View Post
To compete in champ classes your dog has to be grade 7 which means it has to have won 4 classes at grade 6 (2 of which must be agility not jumping). If they then make it to agility champion they can continue to compete and gather champ tickets. Winning an agility champ class is a huge achievement as you not only have to beat every other dog but some of them are champions several times over, the difference with agility though is that the judges opinion of your dog doesn't mean much if it's not the fastest dog around the course clear..... In champ classes handlers have to compete on a jumping course then an agility course. Then they go on to compete in the champ final (sorry not sure how they qualify or how many) and the winner of that gets the ticket You tend to see all the top handlers at champ shows and watching the champ classes run is well worth your time as the courses are usually quite challenging. It is also interesting to see how many dogs seem to just stroll round but then go on and win the class.......
Thanks for that, I think I sort of get it now lol!
Becky
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 10:00 AM
Originally Posted by Cayley View Post
There is no denying things have changed, when the system was elementary, starters, novice, intermediate, senior and advanced it was possible to get a high place in novice because the courses were usually difficult with the occassional easy one, so experienced handlers bringing out new dogs had to train them to a higher standard before competing so apart from the few that are successfull straight away, it took them a few shows before they got fast clear rounds. Now they are bringing new dogs into grade 3 and from the few courses that I did they were easy with the occasional difficult one, so the experienced handlers just blast their dogs round them and rather than one or two being clear most of them are, so those of us who were getting 5th or above on these courses in starters are now usually outside the top 10 .
They didn't have to train their dogs to a higher standard any more than they do now but the biggest difference is that they now they are effectively up against starter handlers on starter type courses and in that situation experience tends to win. This is a good argument against starting everybody at the same level (grade1) Previously they were entering their youngs dogs in novice classes and having to compete against some that had been there for a while and so it would take a little longer to progress. I think the rules for progression are changing though from next year? I know they voted it in but never heard on when it would be happening but instead of it being 7 days before the closing date to qualify at a particular level it will be 25 days before the show which should speed things up a bit and prevent multiple winners holding others up.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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29-03-2008, 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by colliemad View Post
I don't think the courses are too easy. I think the problem is that they have to be set for the majority and no I don't mean collies! I do judge and I enjoy setting courses for the lower levels, I believe that inexperienced handlers and dogs need straight forward courses to help build confidence. Handlers in grade 1 and 2 make their own mistakes. I have been known to alter pacing between jumps which in fact catches out the faster dogs so some of the steadier ones that would not normally get a place on a fast course do and I know I am not the only judge to do that I set one course last year like that on the final line, I also made them go past the wrong jump across open space to the next and a lot of faster dogs were eliminated here, the steadier ones stayed with their handlers and went clear. The problem with the new grades as I see it is that now judges are more aware of which dogs are in each level, in the old novice their were always young dogs but the courses had to be set for majority which were not inexperienced youngsters. Now we have grades and grade 3 is for young dogs or those that have progressed out of grade 2 so judges are setting nice flowing courses so that these young dogs don't lose confidence on sequences they are not ready for. You still get some trickier combinations but they are few and far between and have lots of people moaning at ringside I am really starting to think that it would be better for the grade 2 handlers to go straight into grade 4 and leave grade 3 for the young dogs coming out with experienced handlers
Thankyou for that
Like I say I am v new - have not been to a real KC show yet so I am only really going on what I am reading here
Glad to hear that judges do mix up the courses
Interesting point with the grade 3
I suppose there is no correct answer for how agility should be run - some will always be unhappy
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Kicks
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29-03-2008, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by colliemad View Post
this sort of comment gets up my nose just a little bit. Yes some handlers and their dogs will do very well with a youngster but that does not mean that it has been trained early or intensively. Some experienced handlers are simply that, experienced good at what they do and able to get the best out of their dogs early on in competition because that experience means that they don't make a lot of the silly mistakes the rest of us do! If an experienced handler brings out a young dog and does well early on the assumption is that they have trained it hard and this is not always the case!



It favours the senior trainers? Mmm do you mean older or those at a higher level than you? The handlers I think you are referring to at that show are as much entitled to be there as anyone else. Only one had a dog in grade three and with only 2 clear rounds over the weekend resulting in 2 places both in jumping classes I cannot see what a difference it would make to you? I travelled nearly 4 hours to kernow K9 and really enjoyed my weekend, it is not a show I have ever done before but certainly would go again. I have been re-training my (grade 6 ) dogs contacts so held them all weekend and managed to cock up his jumping classes, I also have a grade 3 dog whose contacts I held all weekend yet he still managed 2nd and 3rd. Finally I have a dog that runs in anysize and he only got one clear and a 7th place but had a whale of a time. I have collies because I like them not because of agility, my eldest dog was 2 1/2 before he even saw a jump yet he is the grade 6 that will go into grade 7, my grade 3 will also make it to grade 7 although I have just put him out of grade 3 on points as the flat out courses are not helping him.

I don't like the new system, I think it encourages people to bring a dog out ready to win out of grade 3 because that is the hardest level to get out of even for experienced handlers. The points progression was supposed to help this but still people are complaining that they want to win out of that level. I can understand winning out of grade 1 or 2 but after that the only other win that is needed is into grade 6 so why can't people take the points option? Agility is not just about speed, I have seen good handlers do well with a average dog, if speed was all that mattered that wouldn't happen.



What a load of rubbish! having a collie does not mean that you will win, there are plenty of slow ones out there beaten regularly by very good ABC's!



You are never going to have a level playing field. Under the old system your dog would be competing in novice now against the same handlers and their dogs so that itself hasn't changed

as for the dogs your OH trains..... so what if they didn't get placed? The higher up you go the harder it gets to come home with a rosette. It is always going to be harder because the standard is that much higher. It is also harder for an inexperienced handler to get a place in a class that is combined with higher grades, I think the small and medium classes were either 1 -4 comb or 5-7 comb?

It appears to me that sour grapes really is the order of the day! You have a dog that you don't expect much from because it's older and not a collie and you don't think experienced handlers should be at a small show and you clearly don't approve of them having more than one dog as this means that they must be selling them? Never even heard of that happening, hell of an assumption to make!! Did it not occur to you that some of these handlers are running other peoples dogs? I saw several doing just that over the weekend!

ETA I also don't know of that many experienced handlers having a string of dogs? I know of dozens that only have 3 or 4.............
*applauds* xx
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Kicks View Post
*applauds* xx
thankyou Have to add that the dog that beat sol (BC!!!) into 2nd and 3rd place at the weekend was......... an ABC! I had to go and sit down when I found out, I came over all faint(joking!) I think it was a spaniel cross pointer or setter? The owner did tell me but I can't remember I did hold my contacts all weekend with him but the fact is in the class we were 2nd in only 2 dogs went round the course in less than 30 seconds so that dog was no slug that's for sure!
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Kicks
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29-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by colliemad View Post
thankyou Have to add that the dog that beat sol (BC!!!) into 2nd and 3rd place at the weekend was......... an ABC! I had to go and sit down when I found out, I came over all faint(joking!) I think it was a spaniel cross pointer or setter? The owner did tell me but I can't remember I did hold my contacts all weekend with him but the fact is in the class we were 2nd in only 2 dogs went round the course in less than 30 seconds so that dog was no slug that's for sure!
ah those spaniel types they're devils you know! I got beaten by one at crufts once, and my friends won both her classes (at their first ever show!) maybe we should campaign to make them run in a little ring behind the barn away from all our poor neglected collie dogs after all just because they train really hard and are incredible agility dogs the ears DO give them an advantage (JJ) xx
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Mahooli
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29-03-2008, 03:48 PM
Ahh if it's all in the ears then I'm going to do very well with my poodles then
Becky
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Ahh if it's all in the ears then I'm going to do very well with my poodles then
Becky
ahh yes but with poodles its all in the hair....... I think it gives them extra lift? Seemed to work over easter with all the wind
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Kicks View Post
ah those spaniel types they're devils you know! I got beaten by one at crufts once, and my friends won both her classes (at their first ever show!) maybe we should campaign to make them run in a little ring behind the barn away from all our poor neglected collie dogs after all just because they train really hard and are incredible agility dogs the ears DO give them an advantage (JJ) xx
I agree, in fact while we are at it lets get rid of ALL the ABC dogs and just have agility for super fast collies after all its designed just for them......
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