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View Poll Results: Should dog agressive dogs be allowed to attend normal dog classes?
Yes, they have the right to training the same as the next dog! 47 63.51%
No, its not fair on the other dogs! 27 36.49%
Not really bothered either way! 0 0%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Lottie
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12-09-2006, 12:20 PM
I haven't actually read all of the thread but we will be taking Eddy to Takara's obedience class as the trainer has said it's fine to bring him along.

Eddy is ok once he's got used to other dogs but he's not always good walking very close to them (although he never bites) and this class practices walking past other dogs and teaching your dog to focus on you rather than the other dogs which will be great for Eddy.
We are going to muzzle him though as there are points when the dogs are let off lead to return to their owner and we can't be absolutely sure that Eddy will come straight to us. He doesn't normally bite but we just can't risk it.

He's improving a lot with being around other dogs however, we will be very careful because Takara has been bitten twice by the same dog at our training class as I don't feel he's controlled very well so I will be sure to be in control of Eddy.
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DippyLeo
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12-09-2006, 12:38 PM
But what do you do when the Person with the dog aggressive dog follows you about no matter where you go within the buliding that the class is being held and thinks its funny when their dog eyeballs and snaps and they don't think there dog has a problem and that its your dog with the problem when all your dog does is ignore the dog aggressive do the best he can?

And yes the owner has been told but still continues to smugly allow his dog to get away with it.

I fully appreciate that these dogs need help/socialisation to help them overcome their problems but sometimes the 'trainer' isn't adequately knowledgable to deal with a dog like this so surely a more expert/knowlegedable trainer/class should be sought by these people with dogs that are dog aggressive instead of coming to classes that inevitably creates problems for the rest of the dogs in that class
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springergirl
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12-09-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Lottie View Post
I haven't actually read all of the thread but we will be taking Eddy to Takara's obedience class as the trainer has said it's fine to bring him along.

Eddy is ok once he's got used to other dogs but he's not always good walking very close to them (although he never bites) and this class practices walking past other dogs and teaching your dog to focus on you rather than the other dogs which will be great for Eddy.
We are going to muzzle him though as there are points when the dogs are let off lead to return to their owner and we can't be absolutely sure that Eddy will come straight to us. He doesn't normally bite but we just can't risk it.

He's improving a lot with being around other dogs however, we will be very careful because Takara has been bitten twice by the same dog at our training class as I don't feel he's controlled very well so I will be sure to be in control of Eddy.
this sounds just like my sam! he doesn't go around snarling or barking like some do. i just can't trust him 100% with other male dogs. he gets better as he gets to know them, but i always carry the muzzle just in case.
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Zetacharlie
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12-09-2006, 12:42 PM
Two of the (several)reasons I stopped taking my dog to our obedience training class was- (Dog and people)aggressive dogs were allowed in class and the owners were not keeping them under control; there were too many dogs in the class for our trainer to adequately supervise what was happening......
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Willow
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12-09-2006, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by DippyLeo View Post
But what do you do when the Person with the dog aggressive dog follows you about no matter where you go within the buliding that the class is being held and thinks its funny when their dog eyeballs and snaps and they don't think there dog has a problem and that its your dog with the problem when all your dog does is ignore the dog aggressive do the best he can?

And yes the owner has been told but still continues to smugly allow his dog to get away with it.
Then I'd be voting with my feet and going to another class, I dont put up with idiots and clearly the Trainer cant sort the bloke out, so I wouldnt want to be in that position as I know I'd end up saying something I regret
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perrypooh
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12-09-2006, 01:01 PM
I think that they should be allowed in otherwise they can never improve,BUT the dog trainer where I work makes sure she places dogs in the correct class,and aggressive dogs only go together with a class of confident well adjusted dogs so as not to affect their learning and upset them,puppies go with puppies or beginners and nervous dogs get placed with very non offensive dogs that wont push them into a reaction or spoil their progress.Plus the aggressive/nervous dogs also get one to one training,where the trainer can take them out and mix them with her own dogs or the yard dogs as we call them(the kennel owners rescue dogs)as they are very used to meeting and interacting with dogs with various issues and problems.This way they are always monitored and other class members don't get upset.If anyone isn't happy they can transfer into another class but this rarely happens.
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Patch
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12-09-2006, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by perrypooh View Post
I think that they should be allowed in otherwise they can never improve,BUT the dog trainer where I work makes sure she places dogs in the correct class,and aggressive dogs only go together with a class of confident well adjusted dogs so as not to affect their learning and upset them,puppies go with puppies or beginners and nervous dogs get placed with very non offensive dogs that wont push them into a reaction or spoil their progress.Plus the aggressive/nervous dogs also get one to one training,where the trainer can take them out and mix them with her own dogs or the yard dogs as we call them(the kennel owners rescue dogs)as they are very used to meeting and interacting with dogs with various issues and problems.This way they are always monitored and other class members don't get upset.If anyone isn't happy they can transfer into another class but this rarely happens.

SOunds good to me. Dogs will never learn if not given carefully managed opportunities to be around other dogs and the well mannered dogs teach the not so good ones far better than a human can because the dogs can give off the right body language that we cant possibly mimic.
So long as the trainers know what they are doing, the handlers listen, and there is enough space [ outdoor is better than indoor when possible ], it should not be problemativ for the other handlers who in the long run are playing a valuable role in helping the dogs with issues as well as reinforcing their own dogs good behaviour.

I do happily allow dog aggressives at agility club [ we only train outdoors ], because we do handle it very carefully with safety for all the dogs and handlers [ and not stressing the DA dog ], being paramount. While a dog is starting to learn other things it really can help ease the DA side.

It is important people realise though, when a new dog joins class it can take a little while for all the dogs to accept the new one as part of their group so its not unusual for things to be a bit noisier and less focussed initially and thats whether the new dog is reactive or not, especially with many entire dogs in a class.

Flooring if indoor is a factor many people dont realise - if its slippery [ no mats even ], which many indoor obedience classes do have to use for lack of more suitable venues, a DA dog is likely to be worse because of magnified insecurity from sliding paws making them feel even more vulnerable especially in fear aggressive DA`s, so the handler of a DA dog needs to consider if thats a factor at the club they want to train with.

It would be worth handlers of such dogs being able to let their dog get used to the flooring with no other dogs there if at all possible to minimise that by the dog having the chace to get used to it without the complication of other dogs initially. A hall is usually a strange enough place for many dogs to be confident in from the start let alone a dog with an additional problem to overcome as well :smt002

Perhaps paw wax should be a recommended piece of standard kit for handlers to take to class
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Brundog
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12-09-2006, 02:19 PM
i think they should be :
However I have never yet found a dog class in my area willing to take bruno on - as soon as I mention the words staffie and dog aggressive due to lack of socialisation I got a firm No from every single one i called.

HOwever the one I did take him to who would accept him insisted on check collars and whilst they did get him walking around with other dogs on the first night and letting other dogs right up to him and sniffing his face etc without any r4eaction from bruno I think it was all just cause Bruno was too scared to do anthing less he be throttled by the trainer. i was most upset and never went back - however it proved that he can be in the same room as other dogs.

I think the growl classes which are for dog aggressive dogs are great in principle but then you just end up with a room full of dogs that want to attack each other and I cant see how that would help bruno when he is fear aggressive.
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mo
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12-09-2006, 07:40 PM
I personally think they should be allowed to go into the classes so long as the owner has good control over the dog, how else would the aggressive dog learn good manners and socialization? you can train a dog all you want on its own, but you need other dogs to overcome the aggressive behaviour to other dogs. so long as the instructor makes it quite clear to other dog owners that a dog has problems in this area, and keeps it all under control I see no problem in it.

Mo
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Ray
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12-09-2006, 11:35 PM
This is a difficult one, because most owners with an OK dog, will resent the intrusion and disruption an aggresive dog can cause. On the other hand, an owner with an aggressive dog will want to take their dog for socialisation purposes. When I took Abby, as a puppy, I did find it annoying that some dogs, would show aggression, and sometimes lunge at her. As a puppy, this could have had a detrimental effect on her.

The school I went to was very cramped, and the dogs were in each others face, so to speak. There was a lot of dogs at any one time, and no segregation of aggresive dogs. I suggested to one of the trainers, that aggresive dogs could have a red band around their lead, or something to warn others, but she obviously didn't think this was a good idea, as nothing was done.

After about 10 weeks, I stopped taking her, as I continued the training at home, didn't feel I was learning anything I didn't already know, and Abby got plenty of socialization over the park, with dogs which I knew to be friendly. (Going at the same time on a regular basis, I would meet up with the same people and their dogs each time)

I think therrefor, I would vote that aggressive dogs should be admitted to classes, provided there is some degree of supervision/management
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