Well I have never fed any of my Dobies vegetables of any kind, but then again I have got large breed dogs.

If you have a look at the following web page it might give you some answers:
http://www.petlibrary.co.uk/dog-care...html?Itemid=33

The only time my dogs get veg is very occasionally in the form of table scraps. I follow a RAW diet, based mainly on prey model, NOT BARF.

People can speculate that dogs are omnivores as much as they like but the fact is that are biologically classed as carnivores and are in the Canis lupus familiaris . They are opportunists so some greedy ones may well choose to graze on a bit of greenery when they please, but it makes up an insignificant part of their diet. Interestingly, there is only .02 difference between mitochondrial DNA of a wolf and a dog. There is that much difference between human races.

I have read several books on raw feeding but my personal opinion is that those by Mr Billinghurst are probably the worst of them all, very patchy and badly written IMO. My favorite is probably Works Wonders by Dr Tom Lonsdale, thats the one I would recommend to beginners as it is nice and simple yet explanatory.

I have seen how my dogs do better without vegetables in their diet with my own eyes so don't have any reservations about what i'm doing

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowne...whynotbarf.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm

http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

As I already said, whats right for one dog may not be right for another. Everyone has a right to their own opinions.

there is a lot of conflicitng info, but i have yet to come across a definite vitamin or anything that would make vegetables essential. thanks for the links Lara's..

If you read the Billinghurst book, you will have all the scientific evidence you need. I'll dig out my copy if I can find it, and put up some quotes, but first I've got to pluck a couple of pheasants and oil the kitchen surfaces! A woman of many talents, me !!

Classification is often given as 'proof' of dogs being carnivores, but in fact, this means something completely different and has little relavance to their dietary habits.

Dogs and wolves are descended from a carnivorous animal, as are all the mammals that belong to the Order Carnivora. This is a diverse group containing animals such as the bears, which are omnivorous, including the almost entirely vegetarian giant panda. Also the urban fox, a closer relative of the dog being in the same Canid family, which has adapted to a diet of human waste and probably including very little fresh meat.

Although these species have descended from carnivores, they have evolved and adpated to a diet that suits their present niche in the modern world.

Yes, the dog is a Carnivore by classification, but not by habit.

Out of interest, have you read any other books gnasher?

When I first started researching raw I made a point of reading as many as I could (plus surfing the web) so that I could make my own mind up re what I believe. Each book is just one persons opinions so the more you read the wider variation of knowledge you will have, which comes in useful as just because one way of feeding raw suits one dog, it doesn't mean it will suit another, and visa versa

Lara: yes, you are right, I should read more. I have only read Billinghurst's book simply because I was not aware of any others. I will do some research !

The reason I am so pro BARF though cannot be found in books. the evidence is there before our eyes, summed up in one word, WOLVES. Our dogs are wolves, directly descended from wolves, with a fraction of a percent difference in DNA - I think someone said it is 0.02%, and that fraction is behavioural, not physical, not dietary, not nothing, just in behavioural terms. In other words, the only difference between a little chiahuahua and Mr Timber Wolf living in North America, are behavioural traits. The relatively few years since man's domestication of the wolf is not even a blink in the eye of evolution. It takes tens of thousands, if not millions of years to radically change the dietary habits of a species.

Our dogs are getting sicker and sicker, insurance premiums go up and up, I am repeatedly told by people "oh Hal lived to a good age". No he bloody well did not, he lived to 10, which is absolutely appalling that people should consider this was a good age. The dog was at his prime, still managing to kill healthy mature buck rabbits, cover bitches (he was a stud dog) and generally keep us on our toes.

We are killing Man's Best Friend IMO by feeding them crap food. Billinghurst says, and my vet too, that if you don't want to or can't do the BARF diet properly, then don't bother, you are better off feeding kibble. What an indictment of raw meat and bones only!

Open your eyes and see the evidence before you - what have you got to lose? A bit of time and money. Vegs from the market are as cheap as dirt, and your dog will thank you for it - although maybe he may not like the taste, like Hal, and will need to be persuaded, it is easy to mask the unpleasant taste of broccoli or sprouts until they get used to it with something tasty.

I'll do a deal with you Lara : I promise to read up more on the BARF diet, if you promise to try your what are doubtless lovely Yorkies (a smashing breed) on some veggies !

You don't need to try to convince me of the wonders of raw feeding, i've seen it with my own eyes.

However, my little ones do best without regular veg in their diet, thats just what works for them.

I know there is a line of people from the Lonsdale side that argue this point, but it is false. If you were to give your dogs veg that had been juiced or steamed you would see that they can digest veg...things that cannot be digested will pass through whole or will upset the tummy - with numerous side effects, diarrhea, sore tummy (unhappy dog etc).
While I might agree that dogs do not need veg every day (it is harder for them to digest veg, therefore more strain on the body) I do not agree that there is nothing in veg that dogs can't get from meat and bones. Don't believe everything you read...

chromium, selenium, iodine, vit a,b,e,d mannitol, carotin (essential for vit a production) copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc, potassium...do you want me to go on???

Natural feeding is not for the faint hearted, and it makes me feel a little ill that as more people take on this task (which is great) it seems to be taken less seriously.
I would expect someone not to do the first thing they read, but to read LOTS of different versions and then pick the one that makes most logical sense to you.