STILL can't bring my puppy home !!

Reuban was 8 weeks old yesterday, and the breeder did warn me she wanted to keep him until 9 weeks. This is because she does the first injection at 8 weeks and wants to keep another week to ensure there has been no reaction. However , last night she said she wants to keep him for 12 WEEKS!! She wants to complete the vaccination process in case my vet offers a different strain of lepto. I REALLY wanted him before 12 weeks so socialise him and fuss and love him ! Everything is ready for him - he's just not here! I am worried though that at 12 weeks he may have got into the habit of toileting wherever - he is in a large pen with his brothers and sister and Mum is there but they are not going out socialising and toileting in the run. I wanted to crate train and take him out everywhere (obviously not with other dogs yet). I really wanted him as a little puppy - is 3 months old a little old to be leaving the litter??? I know the breeder is doing what she considers right, and she has bred to keep two of them so she is not in it for the money, but how can I reassure her he could come home earlier???

12 weeks is actually a better time to go to his new home. That way he learned to socialise while weaned with his littermates and mother. You wouldn't be able to take him out to socialise before his injections are finished anyway, so the breeder keeping him until then is actually beneficial to that. He is still young enough to learn everything as toilet training takes a bit longer than that anyway.
I really don't understand why most breeders let the puppies go at 8 weeks, it's far too young. They only had their eyes open a couple of weeks and haven't really been able to make any experiences yet and then suddenly they're taken away from everything they know, put into a new environment and expected to learn loads of new things at the same time.
I got my dog (the only pedigree dog I ever had) at 12 weeks and he was a gem. No problems with him ever, no behavioural difficulties, no fear or insecurities. This is obviously because of the careful socialisation I did with him but also because he had more time with his family to learn the language of dogs instead of having to learn it from complete stranger dogs.

So all I can say is respect to your breeder, I think they're doing exactly the right thing.
And you will get a puppy that's still cute and tiny and has all the ability in the world to learn everything you want to teach him.

Thank you Florence - put like that it makes some sense. I shall remain patient ! (at least for a little while longer !)

I kept Mabs's recent litter until they were past 8 weeks, in fact the last one only left a couple of weeks ago due to there being builders still in the house and her at her m-i-l's.
Mine had to wait until I could get them litter eye screened and the appointment was the end of January, they were 8 weeks on New Years Day. I had already warned my puppy families it may happen, and only one set argued with me when it happened. I took the puppy that stayed longer for her 2nd vax, took her out with the others (in the car) onto the park for playtime and did a bit of leadwork with her.
I paper/pad train my puppies from 4 weeks onwards.
As regards vax I told all my puppy families what my vet used and asked them to find a vet that did the same one, they all did this, so maybe worth finding a vet that will do the same one as your breeder uses.

Research would suggest the opposite

You can socialise a puppy without putting them at risk and the more they are exposed to in safe way at a young age the better they can cope as an adult.
You may have been lucky Florence that your breeder did a good job of socializing her pups before they came to you and then you carried on the job well too, but sadly that is so often not the case
I have seen so many pups that have left at 12 to 14 weeks that have turned into fearful adults because their breeders kept them wrapped in cotton wool, as babies their fear responses are much more flexible allowing them to learn without being overly fearful, bit like babies.

Maybe Budha you could speak to your vet to see if they could reassure your breeder that you will have the same medication?

Well you could check with your vet regarding the vaccinations but tbh you can't make the breeder part with the pups sooner than she wants to. I'm guessing it's a small breed puppy and lots of reputable breeders keep them until 12 weeks. As for socialising one of mine came home at 16 weeks and she's absolutely full of confidence but if the breeder decides to keep the puppies longer then it's up to them to ensure they get all the early socialisation they need. Funny breeders of larger breeds generally want them to go by 8 weeks because a large litter of say 10 12 week old puppies would send them off to the funny farm.

There are definitely 2 schools of thought about the 'dangers' of taking puppies out before they've had all their initial vaccs.

Years and years ago it seemed always that 12 weeks was considered the age to take a puppy from the litter. But as with everything else - over time - ideas change.

Here in Cyprus they let them go at just 6 weeks and obviously some have to go almost immediately after being born if they are the result of an abandoned or dead stray mother dog.

I've never been over-cautious about taking my dogs out before all initial vaccs were finished. Didn't plonk them down on dirty ground or surfaces covered in dog poo and, especially for tiny Bella, mainly used a shoulder bag dog carrier (not a hard job when she weighed under 1kg to start with lol) But did want them socialised with people from an early age. If I'd had to wait until Bella was finished with vaccs she'd have been getting on a bit because of her being so ill when I got her the vet wanted to wait until she was completely better before starting them over. So she was around 12 wks old before she started having any vaccs.

When I lived down in Newlyn I asked my vet about taking my CKCS out before vaccs completed. He just advised me not to take her down on the Newlyn 'working' beach very close to me as there were lots of rats down there.

Also took them everywhere in the car with me.

Sorry to argue, but what research? And who did the research?
To be honest yes you're probably right about some breeders not socialising the puppies, but I wouldn't call those breeders very reputable. In my opinion, the breeder's job isn't just to rear the puppies and give them food and vaccinations, but also to slowly introduce them to things they're going to encounter in later life (like Tawneywolf for example). And wouldn't that be much better when they're still with their mother?
Plus the socialisation window goes up to week 16 so the puppies who turn into very fearful adults would have only been socialised after that or in such a forceful way that they were overwhelmed by it all. Because it's possible to socialise your puppy too much. It also needs a lot of rest to process everything and needs only small doses of socialisation.
A puppy's eyes and other senses are only starting to be fully functual by the end of week 5 so when you take a puppy away from it's mother at 8 weeks, it's only actually had any proper interactions with littermates for 3 weeks. I find it almost irresponsible to take puppies away from their family at that age then, they've not really had a chance to refine their social skills with their own species. Problems with other dogs is one of the main things quoted by people when they're looking for behavioural consultations for their dogs. Even dogs that are friendly towards other dogs and just want to play are frequently rude and have limited canine communication skills.
It's fair enough to say that once you take your puppy home you're going to socialise it with other dogs a lot, but how much will you be able to do that realistically and are you going to find the right kinds of dogs to do it with?
It's hard to find good teacher dogs and if I had a puppy now I would be extremely careful as to which dogs I let it socialise with. I've heard of so many puppies being run over by other dogs and played with so roughly that then either turn into nervous dogs or into bullies themselves, it's really sad. And sadly a lot of puppy classes are badly run, with 8 puppies just playing with each other in the same room.

So considering this, I think the best age of a puppy to leave his or her mother and littermates is between 10 and 12 weeks. You don't miss out on the socialisation period but you also get a puppy that's learned how to interact with other dogs.

I'm lucky, or my babies are, that they are born into a family set up, so they have not only their mum, but a nana, a great aunt and a cousin, they always have a nanny dog appointed for them and the others help with discipline and dog manners. I've noticed that beyond 6 weeks, within my set up anyway, mummy keeps away from them and the others take over whilst her milk starts going back. She obviously gets ambushed sometimes by them for a suckle, but the times between get longer and longer, once they have teefs and claws she is really not that interested and with the others there to lend her a helping paw she doesn't have to be with them constantly, yet they still are being educated and learn how to interact with other dogs.

I let my puppies go at 9 weeks - by then they have learned a lot from their mother, siblings and other dogs in the household but do really need to move on to their new families.

I find it really hard to let them go because I have fallen in love with them and their little foibles - but as I have carefully selected their new homes, I have to trust my judgement that they have the best possible people to go to.

I give them their first vaccination and give the details of the brand etc before their new owners collect them. If their own vet does not use the same brand normally, they can order the right one in - or the puppy can come to my own vet for part 2.

I suspect your breeder is having trouble letting the puppy go so reassure her and try and find out if your vet does the same vaccination course or promise to return to her vets for part 2. Puppy needs to come home with you.

Maud