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werewolf
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12-01-2010, 12:38 PM
I am a great believer in freedom and for my dogs it means a good run, play together, sniffing about doing their own thing, offlead as they wish to (not disturbing others of course). I feel it is natural. Of course as Chaz has said it needs to be somewhere safe but I also believe that it should be considered before getting a dog, no safe place to run, no dog.
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Helena54
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12-01-2010, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
Knowing what a ''fish'' Skye is I have to agree with CD, I am not at all sure if I had to keep her on lead I'd fancy going in water in cold weather One of the delights for these is throwing a ball into the water.


I think alot of owners Not suggesting dogsey ones mind, do forget on walks that training is important. We do alot unconsciously really if you think about it, whistling them back, telling them to wait, stay down, fetch, here etc., so ttraining is ongoing in my mind on walks anyway, thats all part of the walk, although as I say we have met numerous owners who are so busy chatting they don't even know thier dog has wandered off, or gone over to others dogs, that annoyes me as you can not always rely on other dogs being as socialible
That's just what I mean, we're constantly training them out on our walks without even realising it, so to me, once they know the commands, you use them all the time, so they're constantly being reinforced imo, you don't have to keep on and on at them with this training, but that's just my opinion and the way I handle it, I don't consciously "train" them when out, they know it, so I use it, all of it
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12-01-2010, 12:54 PM
In my opinion if a dog is used to running loose, then it would be far worse for them to be confined and kept on a lead. If they are not used to it then its different, but I wouldnt want to keep a dog confined to a lead all the time.
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12-01-2010, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
No, its nice but not necessary, Moll has patchy recall, and believe me i have tried to cure this for 2 1/2 years she is brilliant on a long line, but let her off and she hunts, she also gets very very hyped on it, i find that 20 minutes training wears her out far more than running round like a headless chicken, she is not frustrated and not climbing the walls, oh and she is a typical busy working springer, i have found that you can never give a springer enough physical exercise to wear them out, only working their brains will do that
Couldn't agree more.
Originally Posted by Helena54 View Post
Having always had dogs in the past who were never ONlead, even when in season (I had a horse on a farm, they could still be there with me OFFlead), I'm very new to this onlead walking.

My honest opinion now is, that they need a bit of both, whereas if you'd asked me a year ago, I would have said dogs should always be offlead.

I could never imagine having a dog I could never let offlead I'm afraid. Watching the sheer joy in their faces, as they race around playing or just running up to me flat out, tells me it's imperative for them to be allowed to do that. I've just seen it just now, when I walked Zena for a whole mile ONlead to get to our snow covered village green, where we met 4 other dogs, so she got to run around with them in about 10 inches of lovely fresh, clean snow, and the sheer joy on her face gave me a warm glow.

I also think it's far more natural for their joints to be boinging about on soft turf no matter how fast, than to keep slamming their feet down on hard pavements or other hard surfaces, it must play havoc with their joints, just as it does in horses, so whilst I agree they should have a bit of both, I think the lead walking should be in moderation.

I'm on my 8th or even 9th gsd now (can't remember without racking my brains lol!) and I have to say, they were all allowed free running, never walked onlead around the roads except under vet's instructions, and all of them lived to well over 10 years old without ever having any joint problems, even at 15 and 16 two of them could get up from a sleep and walk straight out into the garden with no ill effects and without any medication either! It's gotta say something?

Something else I have noted since I've been lead walking this week with free running, is that Zena is happy to sleep when we get back, whereas free running alone doesn't tire her out, the adrenalin is still flowing when we get back and she's quite manic in fact sometimes, so that also tells me something!

I am sure that this leadwork makes them use their brains a lot more, especially in these conditions, where we've just had to come down two very long, steep, slippery, icy roads, and she has had to walk so, so slowly at times so that I didn't fall over, totally focused on me, everytime I said hey, with me, or wait, so again, I am convinced this leadwork adds a big bonus to our training. When you think about it, when you get somewhere wide and open, you let them off and all you really need is recall, a good one at that, whereas onlead, they've got to think a lot, lot more so many more experiences too, all the traffic, all the people, other dogs approaching ONLead instead of usually off when you're out in the open, big wheelie bins blocking your way, strange men in big coats, little kiddies, oh there's a menagerie of stuff going on to fill their little heads, and it can only be good to experience it all imo!

I'm quite liking this leadwork and I never, ever thought I'd say that!
The highlighted part is the stress thing I was talking about in the other thread that started this. If a dog is not calm and is hyper at the end of the walk, it is 'stressed' thanks to the adrenalin running around it's body...it can take a couple of days for it's adrenalin level to go back to normal...so a free run, followed by a lead/training walk the next day could be ideal. When that was first suggested to me I did wonder...but I have seen what you have seen H, Cosmo is exactly the same. He is 'stressed' after a free run around other dogs chasing his ball...but not after a lead walk...so he gets both, we vary it a lot now and he seems happier (and more calm) as a result.
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
Interesting replies, thanks.

I realise that us here as dog owners are very lucky with the fact that we do not have high prey drive or any other issues people have with walking off lead and I am thankful that ours respond to whistles.

Whilst Skye is the only herding Border Collie we have, she is also a listener, which makes our lives easy.

I think I can see it from both sides, whilst my own 3 would come back after a on lead walk ok, they still have to have thier 3or4 hours off lead just to run like the wind after each other and play( but that is also something they have been used to), but I can see myself that a dog with any issues off lead is safer kept on lead, although nice to see it is training leads they are on not short leads
My dogs are generally (away from the icy conditions we have had of late) walked on a 7 foot lead,even on pavements, Tango is often popped onto a longer lead (longline) when in the field/woods. They have a lot of freedom onlead, they sniff and explore. I do not expect them to walk to heel unless i asked them to for safety reasons.
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
Now this is something I totally agree with

Free time for mine is in the garden...even now.... as they must be watched, I also believe in watching other peoples dogs too, as often they are not being watched by thier owners Only yesterday we were joined by a couple with 4 dogs, JRT,Collie X, Old english Sheepdog and terrier x lurcher, whilst they were busy chatting away to all and sundry, thier dogs were busy wandering off......I am sure if I wasn't saying to my three ''here'' they might of followed suit
The number of people who let their dogs off then treat the walk as a social activity for themselves is amazing. I ended up with 3 extra dogs the other day, thankfully when I had Cosmo not Tango with me.Lovely dogs and I know the owners...but they didn't come and get them, I had to walk the dogs back...and one stayed with me for the entire walk...even when it's owner tried to leave!!!
Originally Posted by chaz View Post
I'm one that thinks that all dogs should have the oppurtunity to run off lead, but only where it is safe, and the owner feels confident with the dog, saying that though when I had Roxy the staff here I took her up to the field at about 10 at night with Honey's high vis jacket on, when there was no one around and just dropped the lead, and spoke in the highest voice possible and gave loads of treats, and after that whenever I walked her it was off lead, but if anything went wrong with her that would of been my fault.
Exactly. We just had someone tell us we should let Tango off and her and any other dog would sort things out themselves. Unfortunately if the other dog was a small, running fluffy thing, it may not come off very well and I don't think the owner would be pleased,should we ever risk that? I think not.
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
There are some things a dog can`t do on lead. Exploring, swimming, wild games, getting filthy etc. Dog things. Also an on-lead dog has a different attitude / body laguage so it is difficult for them to interact with other dogs.
I know a lot of dogs are never let off lead for various reasons - Medical, behavioural etc. And a lot of people think small dogs are fine on extending leads and never let them off.
Personally I have a problem with this. The same way I have a problem with birds in cages. This may be a personal prejudice, but I think a dog misses out on a lot of what it means to be a dog if never off lead, and the owner misses out on a lot of the fun.
Tango doesn't do swimming. Or mud. She plays with Cosmo in the house and garden and is certainly not allowed to participate in rough play out of the house...infact I don't think any dog should be allowed to 'play rough' in parks/fields etc...
What does it mean to be a dog? I find that puzzling. Tango sniffs around/does searches/retrieves etc..she is definitely a dog that does dog things...I have no idea what you mean by that.
Originally Posted by Hevvur View Post
I think I would have said 'Yes', if it wasn't for me having Teagan, wh under no circumstances can go offlead unless there are no dogs ANYWHERE near by.

Does she suffer from being onlead all the time? Not at all!
We went on a longish walk on Sunday (Silverdale).
She got to go offlead on the beach for 5 mins - did she run around - no! She hardly moved from my side!
So pretty much the whole walk was spent on lead (like usual). She's still tired!
I let her sniff things, and let her walk over to things to investigate, and it really tires her out!

Going to training for an hour a week also tires her out more than an offlead run would!

I'm not saying she always has to walk.....I jog a little when i'm feeling well, and she has an extendable lead for on the park/beach. She doesn't walk in a straight line anyway, and loves to sniff everything!

So....My answer is 'No'. I don't think dogs 'NEED' to have a run offlead - as long as they get the stimulation elsewhere!
Me too.
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
I think ALL dogs need stimulating exerscie, be they get that free running or on th elead, matters not.

I think dogs enjoy free running and their is nothing nicer than seeing dogs off lead enjoying themsleves.


Do I think dogs who for what ever reason are not off the lead all or most of the time, are in any way lacking a good life, No!!

Its down to the commitment of the owner in making sure their dogs are happy healthy and enjoy their walks.
Yep
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
You obviously have not seen mine them when they are on lead.

They can swim , or one does, get as muddy as the next dog, find muddy puddles, play doggy games and the most important thing, come home happy and contented.


I am not saying ALL dogs should be kept on leads, ofcause we all love to see our dogs running free, with doggy friends, but sometimes its just not possible, and when you hear some say things like " its cruel," "the dogs dont have a happy life" and the dogs are "missing out" it kind of grates a little, and can make you feel less an owner(not talking personally) than the person who allows their dog to run free .

There is a saying walk a mile in my shoes, !! then make these statements that dogs who are not allowed off lead are suffering, or such like.

I wonder sometimes if people think that dogs who are mainly on leads dont get any form of free runs, people have gardens, they find places where their dogs can have a run safely, and most importantly they ensure their and other dogs are safe,

A happy do gis one who is content, stimulated and exercised, regardless of how it is achieved.
Exactly
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
I'm in the "yes" but also the "it depends on the dog" camp. Looking at my own dogs, my Yorkie probably wouldn't be too bothered if she didn't get off lead much. She gets off lead every day (generally, unless we only have time for a quick street walk) and rarely ventures from my side. For my Lab and my Slovak (particularly my Slovak) however, condemning to a life on lead would be extremely boring. They are active gundog breeds and cannot track interesting scents, sniff through the undergrowth, run like the wind, chase each other, etc., on a lead. Well, I suppose they could if they were attached to a long line but they are not at all practical for most places we walk.

One thing that really breaks my heart is seeing young, friendly dogs that are NEVER let off lead. There is one woman with a chocolate Lab that I see often see who has never let the dog off because "he won't come back". I also know of a Golden Retriever and a Border Terrier who have also never been let off the lead, because "he/she won't come back". Each of these people have had these dogs since they were pups. Now, who's fault is that the dog/s won't back? the owners! because they couldn't be bothered to train the dogs effectively, the dogs will now be stuck on lead for life. It is quite sad watching these dogs straining on their leads, DESPERATE to play and interact with other dogs, but they cannot.

Obviously I appreciate that there are many reasons that a dog should not be let off the lead. Some may be dog aggressive, have dangerously high (dangerous in the sense that the dog may put itself in a dangerous situation) prey drive, and so on, but to not make an effort with a pup is just silly. Most breeds, with work and effort on the owners part, have the ability to learn a decent recall. Not perfect, but decent. I don't believe in perfect recalls, or perfect anything where dogs are concerned.
Hmmm...
I have a VERY active gundog breed. Cosmo is NOT interested in other dogs. He is interested in us and his ball and squirrels. He will sniff around if there is not toy but he much prefers to keep close to us and interact with us.
As for recall...a recall is only as good as the last one you did...but before any dog of mine gets let offlead I need to know I can get it to come back to me. The recall needs to be better than 'decent'
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
Knowing what a ''fish'' Skye is I have to agree with CD, I am not at all sure if I had to keep her on lead I'd fancy going in water in cold weather One of the delights for these is throwing a ball into the water.


I think alot of owners Not suggesting dogsey ones mind, do forget on walks that training is important. We do alot unconsciously really if you think about it, whistling them back, telling them to wait, stay down, fetch, here etc., so ttraining is ongoing in my mind on walks anyway, thats all part of the walk, although as I say we have met numerous owners who are so busy chatting they don't even know thier dog has wandered off, or gone over to others dogs, that annoyes me as you can not always rely on other dogs being as socialible
Yep.

Originally Posted by werewolf View Post
I am a great believer in freedom and for my dogs it means a good run, play together, sniffing about doing their own thing, offlead as they wish to (not disturbing others of course). I feel it is natural. Of course as Chaz has said it needs to be somewhere safe but I also believe that it should be considered before getting a dog, no safe place to run, no dog.
So....Tango shouldn't be with us then? Unless I had a fully enclosed field with a very high fence with no birds/livestock/bunnies or other dogs, she should not be with me???
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Lizzy23
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12-01-2010, 01:01 PM
i'm starting to realise that its variety that is important, 2 of my dogs are rarely on lead, and this if i am honest is laziness on our parts its far easier to drive to the woods let them loose and only have to worry about Moll and millie on their leads, but in doing this we have made a rod for our owm backs as in because we don't use leads very often they are awful on them, our new years resolution this year is to crack the lead walking, they all walk ok as individuals, buts as a pack it turns in to a competition so we will be doing far more of walking them on leads as well as letting them run..

Molly and millie do get to go off, just not every day, and moll for one doesn't interact with anyone or anything, she gets her nose down and retreats into a world of her own where only furries are important
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youngstevie
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12-01-2010, 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
In my opinion if a dog is used to running loose, then it would be far worse for them to be confined and kept on a lead. If they are not used to it then its different, but I wouldnt want to keep a dog confined to a lead all the time.
you've hit the nail on the head with my three, they are more off than on, but they don't mind being on lead, they just wait for the off lead

Although mental stimulation goes a far way with Skye and Bruce (don't add Reah as she is such a ''we don't know we have her dog'') they need to run loose, as I say being watched of course, they seem to come back and just sleep.
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12-01-2010, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
i'm starting to realise that its variety that is important, 2 of my dogs are rarely on lead, and this if i am honest is laziness on our parts its far easier to drive to the woods let them loose and only have to worry about Moll and millie on their leads, but in doing this we have made a rod for our owm backs as in because we don't use leads very often they are awful on them, our new years resolution this year is to crack the lead walking, they all walk ok as individuals, buts as a pack it turns in to a competition so we will be doing far more of walking them on leads as well as letting them run..

Molly and millie do get to go off, just not every day, and moll for one doesn't interact with anyone or anything, she gets her nose down and retreats into a world of her own where only furries are important
I laughed at this...soz, but it is a common mistake, and I agree the ones off lead, turn walking on lead into a nightmare. We had this with Bruce so I went back to basics...blaming myself....I started walking him alone at first, then with Skye and then all three, he's realising now that when on lead he has to behave, but I can see (been there) what your saying, as he always used to start playing up on lead which in turn started Skye off. we looked like demented nutters walking down the road....thankfully that has been resolved now
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12-01-2010, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Couldn't agree more.

The highlighted part is the stress thing I was talking about in the other thread that started this. If a dog is not calm and is hyper at the end of the walk, it is 'stressed' thanks to the adrenalin running around it's body...it can take a couple of days for it's adrenalin level to go back to normal...so a free run, followed by a lead/training walk the next day could be ideal. When that was first suggested to me I did wonder...but I have seen what you have seen H, Cosmo is exactly the same. He is 'stressed' after a free run around other dogs chasing his ball...but not after a lead walk...so he gets both, we vary it a lot now and he seems happier (and more calm) as a result.

My dogs are generally (away from the icy conditions we have had of late) walked on a 7 foot lead,even on pavements, Tango is often popped onto a longer lead (longline) when in the field/woods. They have a lot of freedom onlead, they sniff and explore. I do not expect them to walk to heel unless i asked them to for safety reasons.

The number of people who let their dogs off then treat the walk as a social activity for themselves is amazing. I ended up with 3 extra dogs the other day, thankfully when I had Cosmo not Tango with me.Lovely dogs and I know the owners...but they didn't come and get them, I had to walk the dogs back...and one stayed with me for the entire walk...even when it's owner tried to leave!!!

Exactly. We just had someone tell us we should let Tango off and her and any other dog would sort things out themselves. Unfortunately if the other dog was a small, running fluffy thing, it may not come off very well and I don't think the owner would be pleased,should we ever risk that? I think not.

Tango doesn't do swimming. Or mud. She plays with Cosmo in the house and garden and is certainly not allowed to participate in rough play out of the house...infact I don't think any dog should be allowed to 'play rough' in parks/fields etc...
What does it mean to be a dog? I find that puzzling. Tango sniffs around/does searches/retrieves etc..she is definitely a dog that does dog things...I have no idea what you mean by that.

Me too.

Yep

Exactly

Hmmm...
I have a VERY active gundog breed. Cosmo is NOT interested in other dogs. He is interested in us and his ball and squirrels. He will sniff around if there is not toy but he much prefers to keep close to us and interact with us.
As for recall...a recall is only as good as the last one you did...but before any dog of mine gets let offlead I need to know I can get it to come back to me. The recall needs to be better than 'decent'

Yep.



So....Tango shouldn't be with us then? Unless I had a fully enclosed field with a very high fence with no birds/livestock/bunnies or other dogs, she should not be with me???
Why shouldn't dogs be able to "play rough"? mine don't have much room to have an all-out rough play in the garden, so they do it on walks. They have great time and the fun is even better when other dogs join in. Labs in particular play very rough and just love it.

With regard to your dog, you have Flat Coats right? yes they are a gundog breed but they work in a different way to HPR breeds. I have never seen a Flat Coat work, but I guess they are retrievers, and thus operate in a very different way. My HPR would be unbelievably bored just sticking by me and chasing balls, she lives to hunt; it is what they do best. Keeping her on the lead would deny her of that completely.
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12-01-2010, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
I laughed at this...soz, but it is a common mistake, and I agree the ones off lead, turn walking on lead into a nightmare. We had this with Bruce so I went back to basics...blaming myself....I started walking him alone at first, then with Skye and then all three, he's realising now that when on lead he has to behave, but I can see (been there) what your saying, as he always used to start playing up on lead which in turn started Skye off. we looked like demented nutters walking down the road....thankfully that has been resolved now
Cosmo was the same. We spent that long working on his recall and behaviour offlead that we didn't focus at all on his lead work and boy did we suffer.He is still a work in progress onlead but is heaps better than he used to be!
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12-01-2010, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Why shouldn't dogs be able to "play rough"? mine don't have much room to have an all-out rough play in the garden, so they do it on walks. They have great time and the fun is even better when other dogs join in. Labs in particular play very rough and just love it.

With regard to your dog, you have Flat Coats right? yes they are a gundog breed but they work in a different way to HPR breeds. I have never seen a Flat Coat work, but I guess they are retrievers, and thus operate in a very different way. My HPR would be unbelievably bored just sticking by me and chasing balls, she lives to hunt; it is what they do best. Keeping her on the lead would deny her of that completely.
I have a fair amount of experience with Labs and I certainly wouldn't have them down as a breed that plays rough....
I don't think dogs should play rough when out as often it ends up uncontrolled and problems begin.
Tango hunts. She goes into hunter gatherer mode. Trouble is she wants to hunt and gather small furry dogs. Should I let her...as at least then she would be happy and being a dog?
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