Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier Debate (lines / size/ fitness etc)

[Admin Edit: split from another thread]

Well, my 1st post and its gonna be touchy one! these days Id rather spend my money on a KC reg dog that has been bred along the right lines than 90% of any of the "irish" dogs availaible. Unless of course it was a dog FROM Ireland with the right background. No, papers dont make the dog, but its past does. Generally I think the staff has had its day so far as work goes, bar a tiny percentage. But those that are left that still have a little of what it takes are from a very few KC lines, NOT show types mind, or a very few Irish dogs.
What I have seen of late is a tendancy for exaggeration to lean the other extreme in the "irish" dogs. size and colour is taking over from form and function. Many of the Irish lines that were good in their heyday of the early 90's have been bred into gangly stringbean nervous wrecks that have little substance. Its been forgotten that a fighting dog NEEDS substance to do its job, along with good wind, athletisism and heart. I dont think we can really cite gameness in the breed now, that has all but been lost.
The size issue is one thats starting to concern myself and other fanciers of the real staff. the old dogs were generally around the 25-35lb mark, and not going much over 17-18" TOPS. There where some catchweight dogs, but not many. now we see 20" plus dogs being bred! WTF!!!!! I think we need to look back in the history books and have another look at what the stafford used to look like.
We dont want to fall into the same mistakes the show people have and produce dogs of exaggeration, as the dog will only suffer in the long run.
Ohh and those who coating off the KC bred dogs, have a look back through the peds of your "Irish" dogs, I think you'll be surprised!
One last comment, a lot of working Irish bred stuff has certain KC lines added in even today to up the anti here and there, certainly Psycho nicks well with raparree.
The name "Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier" was introduced by Shaun Barker in the early 90's, someone who interestingly vested most of his attention to Stormer bred dogs, which as we know are all EBT Pit crosses, the stafford blood was pretty much redundant by the time his line became infamous.

What a good post

i thought so too an actual none biased point of veiw, very informative .

thank you!! I thought I was going to get a hammering for this opinion!

Is that your dog in the avatar? can I see a bigger pic of him/her please ?

Not my dog, wish it was! Its Ch Brock, a KC line Staff from teh 80's I think! What a Staff SHOULD look like IMO!

well Betchycan you are bang on the money with your post with what you have said so i will add my two pence worth.
Yes it would surprise a lot of people out there what some lines of proper KC reg Irish staffords are capable of also you mentioned substance a dog is going have to be able to take punishment if its going to last the distance and give punishment out.and a dog with no substance will not last.
A lot of people talk of gameness this is not the willingness to fight but the ability to keep going through pain ,injury and fatigue until the job is down no matter what the outcome is
Gameness is not being on the end of a lead snarling and growling at somebodys pet dog walking down the other side of the street whitch some owners take great pride in any lap dog can do this in a game dog will always keep his eye on another dog and be ready to defend himself.
Also a game dog will not go roaring and snapping and growling when he attacks , he will attack with a silent controlled fury with the intention of of killing his opponent not fighting with him .
Now people say keep the gameness in the stafford the only way to keep gameness in the stafford is if you are coldhearted and bloodthirty and also to risk jail time by pitting the stafford but be prepared for the consequences whitch are 1 euthenising your dog if it dosnt come up to scratch 2 be prepared for your dog to be crippled maimed or killed 3 have to look after their dog after the fight and that means looking at their beloved dog ripped to pieces its body swoll up and not able to get out of its bed to go to the toilet without whimpering because of the pain its in also you have to treat these wounds and the infections that follow and this is win or loss
In my opinion no stafford should have to go through these barbaric actions so those that talk about gameness this is what gameness means , and dogfighting should stay were it belongs in the past

I agree some-what, to the extent that size is NOT an issue with our breed. Why some think bigger is better is beyond me

I'll second that !

good post minty. :smt023
I have always wondered how pitmen managed to keep their self control when their dogs were getting beaten, its all very well if your dog is winning, but even then they can sustain terrible injuries as you say, that can take a while to heal, but if your dog is losing how can you stand back and watch? I know I couldnt!!

Ive heard of dogs being picked-up game, (something their owners probably got given a hard time for ) I dont think I could put a dog in the ring let alone pick it up game, I am too much of a hands on person and cant stand to see my dogs getting injured. I would be wanting break the fight up not watch it get steadily worse and worse, so my interest in dog fighting has always been purely from a sense of historical curiosity about the breeds origin, but I have to say (and this is a controversial one) that the pitmen of old were much more respectful towards their dogs, and towards their opponents dogs, it was considered much more of a "sport" akin to a boxing match than the violent bloodthirsty craze it has become nowadays
From talking to the old pitmen its easy to see that they took great care and pride in their dogs, which to most people is ironic, since its hard to understand how they could then put them in a pit against a dog of equal ability and watch them battle it out, but in those days I think they were far more intent on running matches to set rules, and i think nowadays, there is a big underground culture of people who havent got a clue what they are doing, dont know the effort involved in schooling or conditioning a dog, and just want to throw any 2 dogs together and watch the gore
To me, ANY type of dogfighting is wrong and I think there is no place for it nowadays, but it does sadly mean that the "gameness" the quality which was bred for and prized above all others in staffords, will vanish from the breed, although this is allready happening as we speak, staffords are getting less and less like their forebears with every generation .