Adam I'm sorry but I have to disagree very strongly here.

They are banned because it was decided they are not needed and are not a humane tool (after, don't forget, a very big consultation, in which not only large organisatoins including the shock collars's manufacturing organisation took part, but both pro and anti users, plus various dog training agencies, behaviour organisations and many individuals such as myself and many others, again both pro and con).

I contacted the people concerned and got all the info and consult stuff sent to me in three very large envelopes!!! and the only bits missing were those who had requested their info not to be made public.

What I read only convinced me yet again that it is best these tools are banned.

What basis do you say high profile organisations are using the ban to promoting themselves? I believe, totally, that they are caring organisations who genuinely believe shock collars are a bad thing.

They are all educated people in dog behaviour and training - some indeed have helped dogs who have been traumatised by the use of shock collars.
No way can you state, as you have, that they are using a ban to promote themselves.
So I disagree strongly with that sentence I am afraid.

As for emotive or political decisions - again I think you are wrong, I think that people are using their brains and most I know who have been involved in large or small way in hoping for a ban, do know quite a lot and also understand the studies etc and are educated to a reasonable level re. punishment, training, behaviour and so on..

Unlike some of the shock collar people who have said on radio it's fine to have dogs off lead amongst stock and who seem to think you can buy a dog, stick it in a garden near stock and not give it any training, beat it when it comes back, and then as it's so disobedient use a shock collaron it which solves the problem as some supporters have pretty much admitted!

Wys
x

Tupac

Quick fixes (that last) are not only appropriate but nessaccary in some cases. Even if not needed isn't it better to get the dog over something fast so it has a better life than wait for ages to achieve the same result.
Re cat, that's good but these people's animals didn't get on they now do!

Wilbar
I agree re equipment, see gsd post for example were all gear failed but e collar worked.

Spray collas.
A, aren't as adjustable as e colalrs
B, are effected by speed the dog's moving and how windy it is.

E collars have lots of levels so you never startle the dog.

Cats.
They use an invisible fence, for table stuff they use a zone thing (basically same princple).
I'm pleased you've had success with your approach to cats. But I've found a dog who is very high drive with a history of chasing will not respond.

Frozen watchfulness
I get excatly the same body language when greeted weather I've used an e collar or 100% pr. Even if I change the training and go from 00% one week to e collar the next the following week the dog still greets with same body language.

Timing
Dog knows it's done the right thing because the sensation stops when it does the right thing! the effect is the same as using a clicker as a marker signal. The repitition means the dog knows it's done the right thing because the sensation only stops when it moves away from sheep not when it flicks an ear ect.

Shona
The majority of e collar dogs had had previouse traners which tried and failed, others had previoue trainrs that didn't even try (malamute was the latter gsd the former).
With these dogs I assessed them tried the pr approach and then opted for e collar as the -best appro-ach. I was proved right.
I agree re timescale.

E collars with owners

I olylet them use it if there timing is good and they've ahd extensive instruction in how to. I don't see the difference in letting them use an e collar and a lead, both can be abusive, both aren't when used properly.

Emma
As someone with regular practical experience with the tool I believe they do not cause pain.

Malamute
Was bored because he couldn't exercised enough, this was because they couldn't let him off around sheep! The e collar has dealt with both the cause and symptom.
He is reliable around sheep.

Lead to start (to show what to do) then off lead.

Breed
Once again a pointless discussion if they have a dog they wish to keep, they all ready knew his breed was the problem! By enabling them to handle him they can now keep their dog. Once again I'll repeat many dogs are ideal for a circumstance except for..... and if you can solve it with training why not?

Other methods
Yes I will try other methods first
A. If a good trainer hasn't tried them before
B. If I think they will work in the circumstance.
To do otherwise is silly.

Emma, you keep saying I'm not answering. I feel I am (just not to your satisfaction) please bullet point/use wilbars approach to make your questions crystal clear. This is not a dig! just a request.

Wysiwyg

The people who are anti e collar are financially and emotionally invested in not using them. To use an example.
8 months ago I worked with a dog aggrssive shep. He was six and had 3 different one to one trainers/behaviourists involved and had also been going to a class for years.
None had worked, but his owner had spent £100s on him to no avail. Those trainers had made moey out of him despite not getting a result.
I did two sessions (with an e collar) and had him running loose and socilising nicely by the end. I charged £50 by using the e collar I got a quick long term result but charged less than any of the other trainers. Some of these trainers were members of a prominent organisation, they all made a living training dogs. If a dog can be successfully resolved in a short period of time with an e collar (a tool their orgaisation doesn't allow) they will be anti as it will loose them business.
Even if they could use an e collar they may not want too as they were charging by the hour so the longer the better.
This is obviously a controversial statement but I have to say I see this again and again.

Adam

Disagree. See the link I gave re the case histories, there is an answer in there about this direct from one organisation.

Again, I am sorry to say this but I am not sure I believe you. I remain cynical - this is a regular ploy of the people who use shock collars - no-one can help the dog except for them.

I know of similar situation except the owner lost patience and sent his dobe to a dog borstal where he had a shock collars used on him - he (the dog) returned WORSE than he was when he'd gone and the owner was worse off.

There are always stories that are genuine, and the opposite of what you suggest...

Sorry to sound disbelieving but I am only going on previous experience..... it's not personal.

Wys
x

Don't worry Wyswig, this is only a forum!

Anyway case was true as are my others.

I'm sure we could easily find case histories of clicker trained dogs who's behaviour got worse.

Adam

Me again Adam

Northern breed owners do a varied amount of activities with their dogs. Mental stimulation is just as important as physical exercise for balance and contentment, especially when sibes or mals are kept as pets.

My guys, walk, hike, bike, scoot, rig run, enjoy daily training sessions, free run and we are now starting agility training. But first and foremost they are family, pets, can't get any quilt at night for the little imps

Was the only exercise available to this lad free running surrounded by live stock?

Do you think the owners would ever have considered letting him 'mal it up' so to speak, let him address the core of who he is. If owners only have one dog and it's possible, running the boy on a scooter is not only allowing him an instinctual outlet but it's also the best fun you'll ever have

Obviously this might not be possible for them. Maybe something to consider if their circumstances every change again.

Take care.

Seoniad.

Sibevibe

They were doing this but it didn't seem to satisy him.

Adam

Neither will free running around livestock, suppressing an ancient hardwired insinct through use of an e collar. But this way of free running obviously suits the lads owners lifestyle.

I wish them the best of luck with the boy.

Take care.

Seoniad.

They comment he's alot happier since the training and is happier than at anytime in his past.

Adam

Interesting thing 'happier' very human thing to say.......I would suggest easier to handle might be a better way of describing it!

I have also seen dogs who are 'happier' since e-collar training - or at least - that is how the owners view it.

Mind you - as the dog is no longer practicing the behaviour that caused the issue and throwing appeasement gestures at them all the time I guess this is how they would see it.

No I am trying to understand what motivates you to use them and what evidence (other than your own) you have. I am not looking for an answer to satisfy myself as the only answer would be that you would not use them, which I know is not going to happen and wouldn't bother asking questions.
I will make my points crystal clear for you then, not as Wilbar does as that is Wilbar not me, one size does not fit all, just as in the dog world but do apologise if my posts are unclear in the questions I have in regards to the use of e-collars.

Could you please show me some studies that prove your claims and that you researched before using them?

Do you believe dog have the ability to get confused, when training with e-collars?

The use of e-collars needs to have split second accuracy, how is it that humans are able to use an implement with that accuracy? Leaving no room for mistakes?

E-collars are made to emit painful stimuli to motivate. True or False?

You claim to have only have seen positive results, but there are negative results documented, can you acknowledge that there are??

This is the reason why I feel it is worth mentioning suitable breeds for owner
Prevention is the best cure. Conscientious breeders of predictably high drive puppies carefully screen prospective buyers to determine if they can offer the puppy a suitable lifestyle. Such owners will have a fenced yard, ample time in their schedule to exercise the dog, the physical ability to handle the dog properly, and sufficient knowledge of the breed and its characteristics. Allowing a non-suitable buyer to obtain such a puppy could inevitably end in disaster. A wise breeder will refer non-suitable buyers to pet-quality breeders where high drive dogs are not so prevalent, discuss the possibility of a more suitable breed for the client, or discourage dog ownership of any kind for those clients who lack the lifestyle for owning a dog.
from this site http://www.canismajor.com/dog/hidrive.html

I guess I do see some of your answers unsatisfactory as you dismiss the motion that there is a fundamental flaw with them
My reasons are
- they are an implement to cause pain and pain only
- they are open to all forms of abuse by humans (link a thread that is going on at the moment and add an e-collar that dog would be in a whole new world of hurt and psychological scarring)

Do you understand that there is no actual benchmark for which e-collars are manufactured?

Which means each brand is unique and can be higher in pain levels than you claim they are, even on the lowest setting!

If it is doing so much good with rescue dogs, why are most rescues against them??