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Jet&Copper
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09-10-2012, 02:56 PM
Hiya Gnasher, how's things?

You have opened up a whole new can of worms now r.e. human evolutionary genetics!

In a way, you are correct - creating a closed genepool is how new species develop, through genetic divergence, however, as it always is with this topic, things are not quite as simplistic as that, after all, if all species exist because of inbreeding, and all species are inbred, well, then why the big worry with dog breeding?

I don't have the energy to write an explanation (i'm dying with the flu just now) but remind me and I'll come back to it.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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09-10-2012, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper View Post
Hiya Gnasher, how's things?

You have opened up a whole new can of worms now r.e. human evolutionary genetics!

In a way, you are correct - creating a closed genepool is how new species develop, through genetic divergence, however, as it always is with this topic, things are not quite as simplistic as that, after all, if all species exist because of inbreeding, and all species are inbred, well, then why the big worry with dog breeding?

I don't have the energy to write an explanation (i'm dying with the flu just now) but remind me and I'll come back to it.
I think you ahve been ill for far too long and its about time you got better :P
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Jet&Copper
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09-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
I think you ahve been ill for far too long and its about time you got better :P
I agree!!! I have clearly p!ssed off the Gods' of Flu somewhere!
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Gnasher
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09-10-2012, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper View Post
Hiya Gnasher, how's things?

You have opened up a whole new can of worms now r.e. human evolutionary genetics!

In a way, you are correct - creating a closed genepool is how new species develop, through genetic divergence, however, as it always is with this topic, things are not quite as simplistic as that, after all, if all species exist because of inbreeding, and all species are inbred, well, then why the big worry with dog breeding?

I don't have the energy to write an explanation (i'm dying with the flu just now) but remind me and I'll come back to it.
O you poor thing, I quite understand and sympathetic noises and e-tissues coming through the ether to you!

I'm not sure that all species are inbred - some must have naturally evolved in a totally un-inbred way to become a thoroughly healthy species. Dogs are man-made, created by ourselves, and like us are inbred and therefore plagued with thousands of genetic diseases. Were modern-day homo sapiens not descended from one of these small waves of hominids out of africa, but descended from a far larger, more fluent, genepool then presumably the health of our species would be far better ... and ditto the same for our dogs.

Our truly wild wolves plagued with genetic diseases? hip dysplasia? eye problems? I don't know the answer to that, but my guess is that truly wild wolves are pretty damned healthy and will live to a good age if their greatest threat - man - keeps well away from them and leaves them in peace.

Get well soon please!!
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GirondeDeb
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09-10-2012, 05:55 PM
All species will start with a pinch point in their gene pool where they go from being weird versions of another species (yet still able to breed with all the other 'normal' versions of that species) to becoming so weird that they can't breed with the other members of the original species. At this point the new species will typically only have a few individuals...the Adam and Eves of the new species, if you like. So these few individuals contain the entire gene pool for the new species (barring later mutations) and they necessarily in-breed.

Species can and do have further pinch points in their gene pools, for example when climatic disaster, disease, famine etc kills off a large number of the species. The example you (Gnasher) cite from the TV programme is one such. In-breeding is the only way for the species to carry on.

The big difference between this happening in nature and it happening in man-made species (or man-manipulated, more correctly) is that in nature the individuals that survive these crises will tend to be the fitter ones. Whereas in our artificial pinch points it is the individuals who show desirable traits, according to our whims.

I'm sure J&C will be able to clarify and expand on this when she is better.....
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Jet&Copper
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09-10-2012, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by GirondeDeb View Post
All species will start with a pinch point in their gene pool where they go from being weird versions of another species (yet still able to breed with all the other 'normal' versions of that species) to becoming so weird that they can't breed with the other members of the original species. At this point the new species will typically only have a few individuals...the Adam and Eves of the new species, if you like. So these few individuals contain the entire gene pool for the new species (barring later mutations) and they necessarily in-breed.

Species can and do have further pinch points in their gene pools, for example when climatic disaster, disease, famine etc kills off a large number of the species. The example you (Gnasher) cite from the TV programme is one such. In-breeding is the only way for the species to carry on.

The big difference between this happening in nature and it happening in man-made species (or man-manipulated, more correctly) is that in nature the individuals that survive these crises will tend to be the fitter ones. Whereas in our artificial pinch points it is the individuals who show desirable traits, according to our whims.

I'm sure J&C will be able to clarify and expand on this when she is better.....
Could not have put it better myself
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Jet&Copper
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09-10-2012, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
O you poor thing, I quite understand and sympathetic noises and e-tissues coming through the ether to you!

I'm not sure that all species are inbred - some must have naturally evolved in a totally un-inbred way to become a thoroughly healthy species. Dogs are man-made, created by ourselves, and like us are inbred and therefore plagued with thousands of genetic diseases. Were modern-day homo sapiens not descended from one of these small waves of hominids out of africa, but descended from a far larger, more fluent, genepool then presumably the health of our species would be far better ... and ditto the same for our dogs.

Our truly wild wolves plagued with genetic diseases? hip dysplasia? eye problems? I don't know the answer to that, but my guess is that truly wild wolves are pretty damned healthy and will live to a good age if their greatest threat - man - keeps well away from them and leaves them in peace.

Get well soon please!!
Thanks pal i promise we will discuss when im more alive
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GirondeDeb
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09-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper View Post
Could not have put it better myself
Thx. That required accessing some very dusty parts of my brain!!!
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Jet&Copper
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09-10-2012, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by GirondeDeb View Post
Thx. That required accessing some very dusty parts of my brain!!!
I know that feeling!
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Gnasher
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10-10-2012, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by GirondeDeb View Post
All species will start with a pinch point in their gene pool where they go from being weird versions of another species (yet still able to breed with all the other 'normal' versions of that species) to becoming so weird that they can't breed with the other members of the original species. At this point the new species will typically only have a few individuals...the Adam and Eves of the new species, if you like. So these few individuals contain the entire gene pool for the new species (barring later mutations) and they necessarily in-breed.

Species can and do have further pinch points in their gene pools, for example when climatic disaster, disease, famine etc kills off a large number of the species. The example you (Gnasher) cite from the TV programme is one such. In-breeding is the only way for the species to carry on.

The big difference between this happening in nature and it happening in man-made species (or man-manipulated, more correctly) is that in nature the individuals that survive these crises will tend to be the fitter ones. Whereas in our artificial pinch points it is the individuals who show desirable traits, according to our whims.

I'm sure J&C will be able to clarify and expand on this when she is better.....
Beautifully explained, thank you for that. I am looking forward to a good debate, although you and J & C have a considerable march on me, but nonetheless I look forward to it when flu permits and my poor old 91 year old papa is back out of orspital, bless him.
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