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Wysiwyg
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23-07-2010, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...
Wilbar, my correspondant suggests that lots of trainers/behaviourists do use them. Just because someone isn't a member of an organisation doesn't mean they aren't good, just that they disagree with your philospy on dog training and behaviour work.

Adam

Who is your correspondent though Adam?

RE the dogs being pts etc, that's scaremongering and exactly what the ECMA try to do.

You know Adam, I have seen all the letters in support of the shock collars written by owners for the consults (except the ones not for public viewing). I don't recall any one of them - ANY ONE - being a situation where it was a life or death situation in reality. Ie if the owner did not leave the dog unattended for hours in the garden, or tried training it in the basics, or did not let it off lead near sheep, or did not have an open gate near a busy road, etc etc, there would have beenno problem.

I've never seen such a bunch of ridiculous reasons posing as support for shock collars in all my life. I was, actually, quite shocked at the lack of understanding and knowledge of the owners who wrote in and their emotional claims that shock collars had helped their dogs stay alive, when for the most part they'd chosen to almost set the dogs up to fail living with them in safety.

It was all really silly, to be frank.

I note too that on the ECMA forum, they've thoroughly cherry picked their references, trying to support their claims - it's all too daft

Wys
x
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Krusewalker
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23-07-2010, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
WB/BM
KW.

My aussie guy reference was to providing the same service.

i still have no idea what you are referring to?
what australian guy


Re your other points, you just work with the dogs body language and reactions and take your cues/use of the collar from that.

Adam
thats what i said (as regards any training of dogs) which is why you and i are dog trainers and a general member of the public isnt (i know we all 'train' dogs, but im being more specific) and should therefore not be advised re *potential* or actual agression remotely, nor remotely as regards the body langauge cues re shock level.
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ClaireandDaisy
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23-07-2010, 07:09 PM
Quote from the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

There are now a number of ‘quick fix’ products available to dog owners who wish to modify the behaviour of their pet. One such device is the electric collar. The Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors feels that the use of devices that rely on pain or discomfort to modify behaviour are inappropriate as they have the potential to seriously compromise the welfare of dogs, and ruin the relationship with their owners.

Shock Collar Risks
Despite advances in our understanding of dog behaviour and training, and the general move towards reward-based training techniques, some people still continue to recommend the use of punishment as the best method of training or dealing with behaviour problems. While shock collars can work to suppress behaviour, their use comes with unacceptable risks, and inevitably the underlying reasons for the problem behaviour are not dealt with. Even in experienced hands, it can be difficult to deliver shocks at the right moment and to predict the level of discomfort or pain experienced by a dog; in inexperienced hands the use of shock collars can often result in poorly timed intense electric shocks that induce fear and ongoing anxiety in the dog. Owners are often unaware of the high levels of pain that they may be causing their dog.

Aggression and Shock Collars

One of the most common behaviour problems encountered with dogs is that of aggression. In many cases, aggression is motivated by fear. When a dog is nervous or frightened, a natural behavioural strategy is to use aggression to get rid of the “threat”. Placing a shock collar on such a dog to stop it being aggressive can result in the dog becoming even more fearful of the situation, which can make the aggression more likely in the future. The use of a shock collar to try and stop aggressive behaviour can also suppress the warning signs displayed by a dog before it is aggressive, which can make the behaviour of the dog less predictable and more dangerous.

Barking and Shock Collars

The risks of using an electric shock to modify behaviour extend to the treatment of other behaviour problems in dogs such as barking. Dogs learn by association - when using a shock collar there is always a risk that the dog may associate the shock with something other than the behaviour that people are trying to stop. For instance, if a shock is administered for barking, there is a danger that the dog might associate a nearby child with the pain of the shock, rather than its own barking. This could lead to the dog developing distrust or even fear of children. Another significant risk with the use of shock collars is that rather than linking the shock to the wrong thing, a dog may not be able to link the shock to anything at all! This often results in the dog becoming totally confused, anxious and stressed as it repeatedly suffers the pain of the electric shock for no apparent reason.

The APBC feels that behaviour problems can be best addressed through behaviour modification programmes based on an understanding of the motivation for each dog’s behaviour, and the use of humane, reward-based training methods.
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Adam P
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24-07-2010, 09:01 PM
Aussie guy is someone in aus who sells training packages with the use of e collars.
My correspondant is a dealer, of course he has a financial investment but I have also heard numerous correpsondants from people with no financial interest.
I also think e collars are far more frequently used by the gp than many imagine. Because I use e collars and I am relaxed about it I often have people engage me in converstaion about the collar. Sometimes these people will say they used one on their dog for sheep chasing ect.

Adam
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Emma
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25-07-2010, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Aussie guy is someone in aus who sells training packages with the use of e collars.
My correspondant is a dealer, of course he has a financial investment but I have also heard numerous correpsondants from people with no financial interest.
I also think e collars are far more frequently used by the gp than many imagine. Because I use e collars and I am relaxed about it I often have people engage me in converstaion about the collar. Sometimes these people will say they used one on their dog for sheep chasing ect.

Adam
I am pretty sure e-collars are banned in some states here, so your Aussie guy would be selling OS because there are regulations on how they are used.
e-collars being used by the GP, is not a great thing, again, the device is too easily misused and there are too many studies (yes, I know you don't hold them with much regard) but you can not deny that with studies they are highlighting the problems that can occur because of the misuse or the dog returning to basic instinct because it can not interpret the pain response resulting due to a specific action and the out come from that can be worse than the initial reason for using it. People in power are listening to the studies.
Again it is more of a quick fix than an anything, we know society today just loves to solve things easily and as quick as possible, it does not justify the result though.
I find it hard that you are still denying the adversity these implements can have in training and 55 pages on, sprouting only positive for them. You disregard the facts and only go on what you have experienced and that is the fatal flaw, one day you will more than likely see first hand the negative reaction that a dog can have to these implements.
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Tassle
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25-07-2010, 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
I am pretty sure e-collars are banned in some states here, so your Aussie guy would be selling OS because there are regulations on how they are used.
e-collars being used by the GP, is not a great thing, again, the device is too easily misused and there are too many studies (yes, I know you don't hold them with much regard) but you can not deny that with studies they are highlighting the problems that can occur because of the misuse or the dog returning to basic instinct because it can not interpret the pain response resulting due to a specific action and the out come from that can be worse than the initial reason for using it. People in power are listening to the studies.
Again it is more of a quick fix than an anything, we know society today just loves to solve things easily and as quick as possible, it does not justify the result though.
I find it hard that you are still denying the adversity these implements can have in training and 55 pages on, sprouting only positive for them. You disregard the facts and only go on what you have experienced and that is the fatal flaw, one day you will more than likely see first hand the negative reaction that a dog can have to these implements.
It is funny how people will only regard studies that give them the results they want to hear.

You see the same with Neutering.

Its funny - I have recently been getting static shocks of my van and off Siren (as I get her out of the van) Upshot = Siren does not go in the top cage and I try flipping hard not to touch the metal. Yes shock training can work.......but I sure as hell would not like to do that to an animal who does not understand whats going on.
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Emma
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25-07-2010, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
It is funny how people will only regard studies that give them the results they want to hear.

You see the same with Neutering.

Its funny - I have recently been getting static shocks of my van and off Siren (as I get her out of the van) Upshot = Siren does not go in the top cage and I try flipping hard not to touch the metal. Yes shock training can work.......but I sure as hell would not like to do that to an animal who does not understand whats going on.
I know, I am willing to keep my mind open to the studies that say otherwise or even the pro people, yet most talk of the down side and the precautions that need to be taken in their use or the individual dogs possible responses and pain perception differing. I have seen one dog turn into a cowering mess over the use of them, yes not used in the most appropriate way but showed me how easily they are misused.
I have had many a static shock and also learnt how to most avoid them I is well trained I can rationalise it pity people think dogs have the same capability.
Not even going near the neutering issue, I have had my share on that thought and learnt some things along the way, no shock necessary
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ClaireandDaisy
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25-07-2010, 08:18 AM
Statement from the APDT

"The APDT applaud the decision of the Welsh Assembly to ban the use of electric shock collars. This abusive device has no place in the welfare and training of dogs and we hope that the stance of the Welsh Assembly heralds the ultimate ban of electric shock collars throughout the UK in the near future".

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT), the UK’s largest professional pet dog training body, is joining the fight to have the use of electric shock collars banned under the new Animal Welfare Bill.

The APDT has a very strict code of conduct for its members, ensuring that dogs are trained only in a positive and humane way. Electric shock collars are totally at odds with this code, training dogs using pain and fear.

The Kennel Club has been heading the anti-shock collar campaign in the UK, and the APDT is proud to support them in their goal – along with an ever-growing number of professionals and members of the dog-owning public who agree that there is no place in a humane society for such aversive and painful methods of training.

Modern dog training has thankfully progressed far from the days when punishment was the most common method of teaching dogs – in the same way as education has progressed from caning children in schools. The APDT acknowledges that there is no behaviour or training problem in dogs that is best dealt with by delivering an electric shock into a dog’s neck. All problems are best solved using up-to-date reward-based training methods and responsible dog ownership – following the APDT’s motto of “kind, fair and effective”. The APDT further recognises that not only are these collars inhumane, but their use can give rise to far more serious problems than the ones originally being treated – often causing serious aggression or debilitatingly fearful behaviours, as they tap directly into a dog’s natural ‘flight or fight’ response.

A spokesperson for the APDT said “We are totally committed to having these barbaric pieces of equipment consigned to dog training history. It is ur professional opinion that it is totally unacceptable to train dogs using such inhumane devices, and a complete ban should be implemented as soon as possible. Dogs are meant to be man’s best friend – and you don’t cause your best friend pain and fear in the name of education.”
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Krusewalker
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25-07-2010, 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
I have had many a static shock and also learnt how to most avoid them I is well trained I can rationalise it pity people think dogs have the same capability.
i seem to had a mischevious and accidental relationship with electricity since i was a kid!

i get quite a literal and psychological buzz from static charges.....they can be fun
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Emma
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25-07-2010, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
i seem to had a mischevious and accidental relationship with electricity since i was a kid!

i get quite a literal and psychological buzz from static charges.....they can be fun
Static charges hurt, you are just addicted to them, wanna ecollar for Chrissy
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