Stopping a dog doing anything like chewing wires, raiding bins etc takes vigilance, but not an excessive amount of time. I've always found the key to be to watch them like a hawk and as soon as they make a move as if going to do what you'd like them to stop, an 'ah-ah' and get them interested in something else.

If you can stop consistently for two or three days, they tend to lose interest and the problem is solved

Then you get the clever dogs who realise that the reward of the distraction is linked to the original unwanted action----and they do it for attention.

Then you do the ignoring thing and they try something else---in the end they find something you have to react to because of a danger.

rune

That does happen, but there are also those of us who prefer to read what a person actually posts and to reply accordingly. Shock collars are always a very controversial topic anyway, I doubt if anyone posting about one would not know that...

I and several others on here had a "friend" who was a shock collar user. He was a good man, who was also interested in reward methods. It's amazing what an open mind can do ...

That is why it's best not to generalise about people, because we are, after all, all very different!


I wonder exactly what a fixed view is, or if it is REALLY fixed...? Why do people have strong beliefs or views?

Beliefs as I understand them, are peoples attempts to understand and/or explain the functioning world around them. Historically beliefs where passed on from generation to generation, in an effort to help the younger folk feel more comfortable with certain "mysteries". These days, peoples beliefs come very often form inadvertant hypnotising that takes place when they hear or see something regularly or displayed in such a way that it attracts some feeling of security or comfort for them.

If one KNOWS FOR SURE (or believes strongly) that a thing is a certain way, then it removes the doubt about ones own lack of understanding. They are not lost in their confused view any more - they now have one. It provides comfort when things make sense.

Having an opened mind requires that one can tolerate the feeling that NOTHING is yet fully explained. It is at times a very uncomfortable feeling and one which many chose to avoid.

Great question though - thanks for raising it!

It needs to be taken into account, that some people have spent a long time (years) working out for themselves what is wheat and what is chaff. So - it may just be that some have been training the old way, it may be that they have decided to not train using (say) choke chains, because of their experience and their belief system plus education or whatever you like.

You can't just label people and put them into little boxes...

I wasn't aware that I did that. I gave my view, on the variety of people and the general trends on the subject under discussion.... Is that boxing people?

...


I agree it's a good thread, but it's a shame that people are not also more open minded more about the other view - it goes both ways after all.

Wys
x

Ok......So how do you stop it? Fascinating thread..

I am only taking the first steps to be a trainer really but my dog Mia came to me with pretty serious dog agression - to the extent that she would have a total meltdown lunging and screaming at a dog shaped blob on the horizon Oh, I see,


I have also worked with a few friends with less bad problems - but at the moment I dont think I have the experience to be fair to launch myself on the public for agression issues


I mean that at the point you are breaking up a fight imo no training is taking place - its managment. At the point of a dog fight the dogs are learning heaps! And prior to that they could have learned loads too - depending on how long it took to get to this point.

I dont consider a startle to be a punishment or a reward (for most dogs) in the situations you are describing because the actual startle isnt effecting what the dog will do next time Well if it is not reward or punishment then what is it in the dogs mind do you think? How do you know it wont affect what the dog does next.

If two dogs are in serious conflict and I bang two tin bowls together near them, they will often break up and then spend a long time etyein one another warily, before deciding that peace is more fun than war! It can be that simple - a massive turning point - though sometimes it is not!

Of course it could be a punishment depending on the dog
But if you are just using it to break the dogs focus so you can get them back to you and break up the fight then it is neither punishing or rewarding

imo if you wanted to use a punishment to stop dogs fighting then you would have to time it to the exact sec where the dog is just about to start a fight.


I want to add an observation here some of my friends had with their people aggressive ball obsessed dog (I wasnt working with them btw I saw it afterwards)

every time he started charging towards people they called him to his ball
so he figured out to run 1/2 way over to people then look back for his ball

a fail in his training most people would think

But actually without meaning to they had classically conditiond the dog
That day he made the link in his head between people and his ball
he loves his ball - it makes him happy

seeing people about suddenly made him happy

after a weekend of him charging 1/2 way towards people he stopped feeling the need to charge up, he just acts normal when people are about - but he is happy for strangers to pet him now (he is a v pretty boy) which was something in the past his owners were always having to catch people and stop them petting him

Same as you. The question was really for those that where tryign to distract without using any negative associations. Which is what a sharp "Ah" is. As I understand it.

I'm not really sure what to class "Ah!" as to be honest with you.

The extinction burst is likely to happen, hence vigilance and I should have added consistency. You really can't ignore something as dangerous as chewing wires.

Most owners, I've found, do stop something like wire chewing because it's dangerous so they put in a lot of emphasis on stopping it happen. Less so, bin raiding because it can be managed and isn't as life threatening. I've never really understood it because I prefer to put in a few days work and stop what I don't want, but, of course, bin raiding would be a problem for me as I'm too disorganised to keep remembering to move the bin . Owner expectations always comes into the equation.

I include 'ah-ah' training from the off. The way I train it, it basically means 'oops! Wrong, try again (ie something else)'. During training, it is used in a soft voice, to stop a dangerous behaviour, the tone becomes deeper so therefore stronger.