Don't be such a bitch Tupacs, you do yourself no favours.

What question? Sorry, have I missed something. I have never owned a pure CSV so therefore I would not dream of commenting - until one has experienced something, I find in it is probably best not to make assumptions

However, I have had experience of CSV crosses, and I found them to be very like Hal, not very interested in pleasing YOU, only pleasing themselves! I assumed this would be a trait of a pure czechie, apologies if I am wrong

Perhaps biddable might not be quite the right word to describe a collie - I think an enormous desire to please would be better - however, I am sure there are collies who are exactly the opposite of this description! All the collies I have ever known have been supremely intelligent and very obedient, including the one we owned, Bertie.

Sorry, fingers got ahead of brain, should have say "happy" not "helping".
Ben has yelped both times you've "zapped" him and you've said you're happy to "zap" him again if needs be. How many times are you willing to hurt him before you decide it's not working?

I realised!!

when did I ever say I would be happy to zap him again? I said I would be happy if I had to to use the pager - that makes the collar vibrate, akin to an electric toothbrush.

Going off line now until tomorrow - lb over, and tonight I have a parish council meeting

Page 8. Voila

thats where i got it from
i am not being a bitch... you seem to put emphasis that your dogs are untrainable and gits because of wolf content.....not only even if there was wolf in there(i have seen pics of both your dogs and hal and their ancestors)it would be like a grain of sand in the dessert
and its simply not true that is the reason why you cannot train them.

Fantastic, you have the basic idea. What have you done in respect of recall within the home? Believe me, I do know how frustrating it can be with dogs who are independent (Northern breeds aren't alone in this). You need to really, really condition your cue for recall and this starts at home. If he doesn't show interest in coming to you at your behest yet, then let him take the lead. Every time he is on his way over to you (both of you), put in your recall cue just as he gets to you so that he can't fail. Do it every time. What you are trying to achieve is the same conditioning we have when we get in the car. We don't have to think about putting on a seat belt, we do it without thinking because it is such a conditioned response that we don't think about not doing it.

When taking it outside, you start in the garden and then, yes, that dreaded long line. You never, ever want him to fail during training if you want to achieve that automatic response that you desire

Yup, I ran away and hid from Mia - 20 min later I peeked out to see her happily playing with a stick on the beach - not all collies are willing to please (although it can be trained - and I have with Mia) Gnasher seems to think collies are the easiest dogs in the world - interesting how the dogs trust has a special section about if you want to rehome a collie because they can be so difficult

Really well said. A good basis for recal can be built in the house - calling the dog when something nice is going to happen, then building up to outside in the garden
and gnasher if you have no issues with sits and stays and allsorts then it sounds very much like your dog is trainable and you are capable to train him, just that you seem to think there is something different with recal training - really its just another trick

No its not a reminder to listen - it is a threat - last time you felt this it was followed by something painful
As you said - first time the pager didnt have any effect, but now it works - why?
Because he now associates it with the painfull scary experience

The pager is a predictor, like a clicker, unlike the latter, it predicts positive punishment rather than positive reinforcement.

I know I am prob waisting my time with this but I had a think about electricity and thought I would put it down here so people are not sucked in by the 'its only static' ' and its only voltage' 'he has thick hair so it hurts less'

Static electricity is where the charge builds up in one place with nowhere to go, it builds up to such a level that it is able to force its way tru a non conductive material (like air or hair) and discharges all in one go

One place many people have met static is on their car
The friction of the air over the metal car build up a charge
it has nowhere to go because the wheels are rubber
- until a person gets close enough to the car that the charge can jump from the car to the person and down to earth

- some people find this very painful (me)

This can be stopped with a small strip of metal from the car to the ground, this alows the charge to flow instead of building up - this flowing charge in the metal is normal electricity, but if you were to touch this metal you wouldnt feel anything because it is quite small - it hasnt built up
static electricity still sound nicer than normal electricity?
Basically it is able to build up a far larger charge and deliver it all in one go from the place where the charge is stored (car - e collar) to the path to earth (human - dog)


Also if the path to reach the human/dog has more resistance (say for example thick fur) then the charge has to build up MORE before it has the energy to jump the gap
- so a breed with thick hair will be feeling MORE charge than a human with nice damp skin (remember dogs dont sweat) and the contacts actually touching the skin

The resistance of the skin really varies by large amounts depending on muscle, fat, moisture, damage to the skin and this change in resistance changes the amount of current passing tru the skin
The higher the current the more chance for the shock to actually damage the skin, to burn it (which is why I was left burnt from the slendertone and many people are not - my skin resistance is obviously different)

so from one day to the next the actual shock delivered to the dog will vary depending on many factors
If there is more fur trapped between the electrode and the skin and the dogs skin has a little damage to it on that day it is possible that the charge is enough to start damaging the skin - on a setting that did no damage before

So in answer to the origonal question do they hurt?
Yes, they can destroy skin and cause nasty burns, they make dogs yelp
it varies from one person to another and varies from day to day

So before you strap it on your dog brush your hair over your neck and apply the collar there, then have someone else try and train you something you dont understand and just randomly zap you wen you do what they dont want you to