I find the basics are always a great place to start with handlers.

Especailly handlers who have dogs with Issues.

It is a great way of rebuilding the relationship between the two and getting some control in at the same time.

Mmmm, I'm partially with you Shona. I tend to take a much more laid back approach ... maybe its a breed thing though. I know that rotties can be very stubborn dogs, and not easy, but the several I have known have been very intelligent, and incidentally very lovely natured, so maybe it is a breed thing, maybe rotties have a greater desire to please, like collies, but with my wolfy guys I do found the more laid back side of Cesar Millan works very well. You may laugh when you read those words, but by his laid back side, I am referring to his not concentrating so much on the "heel", the "sit", the "stay", but more on the calm positive energy of the dog.

As an example ... with mals, utonagans etc. etc., my experience is that the more you pull, the more THEY pull ... literally and metaphorically speaking. Literally ... when they are on the lead, if you have them on a choke lead ( ) and hold them tightly and on a short lead, they will pull like an express train. If you walk with a nice slack lead, in a calm, positive way, shoulders back, relaxed, just giving a short tug on the lead if they get too forward, maybe a little tsst at the same time, this works a treat. Tai pulled like an express train when we got him, but after the first walk round our field, he was walking nicely to heel using this method.

Metaphorically speaking ... these northern breed types are very stubborn and very independent ... and very intelligent too. You "pull" they will "pull" even harder. You be too strict about the speed of the recall, the position of the heel, whatever it is, they will take the ball away. Perhaps this is why Cesar's methods worked so well with Hal, and now work so well with Tai.

I'm off to the pub now! All this thinking has made me very thirsty !!

People who adhere to the dominance myth in general have a pretty empty tool box when it comes to dealing with problems. The old saying comes to mind: If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail

Dominance trainers tend to be self-"taught", and this makes them over confident of their own abilities. They seek out people who think like them to reinforce their beliefs. Gnasher, suffers from the same problem and she has sought out people like Millan and Ellis to reinforce her belief. Thanks to her confirmation bias she has summarily dismissed the work presented to her by real researchers in preference to her observations.

Unskilled and Unaware of It was such an influential paper it has come to be know by the author's name "Dunning-Kruger effect"

TBH I think that training the basics - and any other tricks for that matter is a great way to build a bond with a dog to make it want to work with you and respond better with you
At the end of the day dogs want to work with us and the more we work them the better behavied they become

I have never seen CM play with a dog, pet it like he really means it - or catch eye contact with a dog and just give it a grin that sends it into tail wagging heaven
Just an observation, we should have dogs because having them makes us and them happy - he and many trainers of his ilk really dont seem to enjoy their dogs - its all a battle - and that is really sad

Hubby's still in the loo, so I've sneaked back on to get in a quickie as it were !!

You've hit the nail on the head Sarah, although I wouldn't use the word "knackered" ! Physically well exercised? !!

Gnasher - have you ever had a collie??
Any problems you think you have seen with a wolfy type are nothing compaired to a badly trained hard headed teenage collie
People just think of them as little robots walking lovely to heel
Sure they are smart - that means if they dont want to work with you you are in trouble
- why do you think there are so many young collies in rescue and that dogs trust has a special section for you to read if you are thinking of getting a collie
infact they wouldnt let me rescue one as I was to inexperienced

Sorry totaly OT but it gets my goat that people think collies are easy to train - quick and smart dosent mean easy

You are so easily impressed.

As he reports in his book -The Ultimate Episode Guide - this dog remained aggressive as ever and the people had to give the dog away when they couldn't handle him any more. Whether this dog was euthanized or not is not mentioned.

It's sad that you were impressed by Millan driving a dog into helplessness and then claiming a dog that has shut down is calm. It is utter garbage.

any trainer worth there salt will be calm and positive.

but why would a trainer or owner need to pull a dog?
thats not how to solve problems, much of my training is done off lead, even with problem dogs,
I tend to use many horse methods with dogs, its far easier if a dog wants to be with you rather than needs to be with you fighting against you. Its just a case of finding out what makes that dog tick and want to be with you

this is where things can get time consuming and you need to have a good range of ideas and be able to think off the cuff, what ever works for the dog works for me, so I mold the training to suit that dog..

again with the pull pull thing, this give me the feel of a very limited trainer with no real ideas.

Again your looking at CM's methods from a wolf dog owners view, but I have not seen him to date train a wolf x

he trains everything from chi's to mastiffs with the the same limited methods.

again, dont get me wrong, Im not totaly against CM nor am I for him, I just find him a tad limited, its the same old week in week out, never anything new.

Im glad Im not alone with this view, very often the relationship is very strained with problem dogs and there owners, its great to be able to give them the building block to change this, I often use the clicker for this as its so hands off, I start with the most basic things and the clicker.
once the owner see's they can train the dog there whole way of looking at that dog changes, then its onwards and upwards from there on in.

well said, I trained kenzo to wave last night with a clicker, have it on vid will load it later, {the rottie that was a bit reactive}

hes off lead in a hall full of dogs and couldnt give a hoot, he has such a positive outlook to training, he loves it.