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I-mac77
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26-03-2008, 01:13 AM
Originally Posted by Malady View Post
I disagree.

As there's so little Greyhound racing compared to 10 years ago, the stats speak for themselves in the designated Rescues !! Obviously more dump their dogs, than they would have people believe. I think it's more like the minority actually care for the dogs and the majority are the money grabbers, and to say there's no money in it, is ludicrous, it still is a very lucrative business to be in when dogs can fetch 5 figures !!
Very few dogs fetch 5 figures, and even fewer people can afford those dogs, the majority struggle to be worth 4figures. Out of the hundreds of dogs i have known only a handful have made more money than they have cost, so i'll stand by my comment, there isn't any money in it for the majority of owners. But for those lucky enough to get a dog of real quality then they may well make a small return. But they are few and far between.
There is also a difference between dumping and putting a dog up for rehoming at the end of it's career. There are many who are unable to take their dogs home for whatever reason. And remember retired greyhounds at the rehoming centres are still being paid for by their owners.
And what is the difference between that and a show'er placing their dog up for rehoming once it no longer makes the grade as that happens a hell of a lot too. The only difference is that it is easy to get rid of a show dog there are no laws protecting them.

But i agree there is less racing now compared to years ago, but the breeding numbers haven't dropped, which is why i think that needs to be addressed. There are two reasons why the amount of racing has dropped, firstly it is illegal for unlicensed racing, or flapping tracks, as this was purely for making money. And secondly, there isn't enough money to be made by track organisers.

The mistake that is always made is to tar all hound owners with the same brush, as only a minority and often the wealthier owners are the bad element. There are hundreds of owners that love their dogs and would never dream of seeing their dog harmed.
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26-03-2008, 01:41 AM
And I stand by what I said. I think it should be banned then there is no margin for error or taking advantage and no-one can make any money from them
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26-03-2008, 04:33 AM
Unfortunately, people will always race dogs (greyhounds or other) simply to compete, even no money involved.

I can remember way back in my early youth (not yesterday, then ) racing Glen (a 15-y.o. Border Collie) against Billy, a 15 month old Boxer, belonging to the lads next door. It had nothing to do with material bets: they had claimed that the "old bonebag" couldn't get close to their youthful Boxer. Over nearly half a mile, Glen beat him "hands down", with hardly a raised breathing rate. 12 times his opponent's age, and about three times his speed.

Hardly in the same league as greyhound racing, but maybe you see the point? Every sport we know started out that way -I am /he/she is better than you/your **** blah blah blah, OK, let's prove it.....

BTW - the reason I'm up at this hour is that my leg is bl@@dy sore and I've used up my painkiller quota.

Snorri
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I-mac77
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26-03-2008, 09:39 AM
That was part of my point Snorri, ban greyhound racing and something else will take over, it is human nature. Instead of banning it, tighter control is needed so that there are less greyhounds going down the wrong track. I hope your leg is better this morning
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26-03-2008, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by Malady View Post
And I stand by what I said. I think it should be banned then there is no margin for error or taking advantage and no-one can make any money from them
That's fair enough, but is sled racing taking advantage of of the dogs too! Sled racing is the greyhound racing of the Northern countries! It is still gambled upon, it's just not as big yet!

I don't disagree that some are only in it to make money, and in my experience it is usually the wealthier owners that are like this! I don't want to see it banned, but I would like to see the issues addressed.

An additional problem is that insurance companies don't cover dog sports!
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26-03-2008, 10:47 AM
I Mac sorry to pick on you but you do seem a rather lone voice in support of the industry and I also apologise for a rather long post and not doing the quoty thing properly but I have put my responses in bold.

Very interesting reading here, and I wonder how many of those comments are due to media hype! The media only ever show the negative side, and believe it or not here in the UK we are one of the good guys with regards to greyhound racing.

I find it a little insulting to say that those of us who are anti are niave enough to only go on what is reported in the media – are you saying that the governments report was only based on newspaper articles. If the media is only reporting the negative side is it possible because the negative side far outweighs the positive. The argument we are better than them is not really an argument at all.

Jodie, you wanted to something positive from greyhound racing, well go to a race track, and get there early whilst the dogs are having trials. Often dogs will be trackside, and you listen and look at them. They can't wait to get out there and chase. That's not to say all of them are like that, but a fair few love racing and the chase. After all they aren't allowed to do it anywhere else anymore! Some of the dogs love it as much as a BC loves agility or flyball!

Why assume people have not been – seen the negative side and decided its not worth it for the harm that happens to these dogs. My dogs love to run and chase when they want not when they have to.

Now I am not saying that it is all good, unfortunately there is a minority element that is very very wrong. The guy that executed greyhounds for £10, not right but those dogs were the lucky ones. Jodie the dogs in your video were far less fortunate (see history of Greyhound thread). There are many dogs bred each year, and only a very small percentage of these suffer, personally I'd like to see that percentage small.

But that’s just the point, it is not a minority element and even if not all involved in racing approved of what was happening the vast majority knew what was going on and did nothing about it, and it is one of many places that greyhounds can be disposed of. You consider those dogs the lucky ones.

I think there are many things at fault, firstly too many dogs are bred, I think there should be rules and guidelines set by the NGRC or BGRB, so restrict breeding. I also think more education is required to the general public, the number of times I have been asked about the amount of exercise Jade needs, and everyone seems to think they need loads of exercise. They are the world's fastest couch potato

The industry in no way can regulate itself now let alone if you want more rules put in place. Most owner, breeders, trainers ignore the rules now because the industry doesn’t actually care enough to enforce the rules.

Why is it down to the general public to sort this mess out? Why should they be the ones having to pick up these dogs once they are done with? Of course there will always be some greys in rescue for valid reasons but how many rescue places could be opened up to dogs that have genuine reason to be in rescue rather than its to old or to slow?


Finally, I think there is a great problem with the Retired Greyhound rescue centers, most are too stringent,picky or on a power trip. I have witnessed potential owners that have been turned down for the most stupid of reasons. Where others because they can make a big donation have been allowed to own an unappropriate dog. One of the reasons ex-racers are dumped is because they can't get into the rescue centers, so if rescue centers could be more realistic in their assessments of potential owners then many more dogs could pass through their doors.


I did wonder when the rescues would be held account for this industries mess! If these owners are all caring why are these dogs looking for rescue places in the first place? Yes your right many cant get them into rescue because the rescues are full, do you really think if rescues had laxer policies all those greyhounds would get homes? Much as we love these dogs not everyone wants one.

I don't think racing should be abolished, but I do think tighter controls are required. There are many people that love these dogs, and love seeing them at their best. These same people ensure that their dogs go home or are found loving homes. I also think that without racing, the Greyhound has no place in the modern UK!

That’s just the problem though isn’t it – they love seeing them at their best, not when they’re injured, old or to slow. If they love these dogs why do they not keep them as pets – please spares they care for them so they try to get them homes people are not that stupid.

If you love these dogs so much why would you not have one anyway – just because commercial racing is banned? There are hundreds of breeds out there that are not longer doing what they were so called bred for – they have not died out.


Actually most owners don't own greys to make money, there is no money in racing! There are those within the racing that are in it to make money, but they are a minority! Until recently there was the racing without money element, it was called coarsing! Unfortunately because it has been going on so long, you couldn't remove the gambling, but you can make it very hard for the rejects to be dumped.

No money??? The breeders are making money, the owners are making money (ok not a lot) the bookies are making huge amounts of money!

I personally think there should be more done to restrict the numbers being bred and more should be done to encourage new homes once they finish racing!

Can I ask why you think its perfectly acceptable to get rid of these dogs in any way at all when they have served their usefulness

It will change eventually it is human nature! If there is a way to gamble it will be done!

It may be in your nature but not in everyones, the racing of afghans and terriers has gone of for years and you don’t see them being dumped once they are not fast enough or killed before they even get on the track.

My comment was that most people who own greys to race, aren't in it to make money as there is none to be made! It is the minority that are in it to make money. And they are the ones who will dump the dogs, so that is was needs to be addressed. Make it impossible to dump the dogs! It is improving all the time but has a long way to go!

Right so all those dogs in rescue are from people making money – well quite frankly there is a hell of a lot of them making money then not the minority. So if as you say they don’t make money why get another dog? In the hope that this one might make it round the track quicker so they can make money! Of course there is also the chance of selling them to the Spanish hunting market – now that’s caring.


Very few dogs fetch 5 figures, and even fewer people can afford those dogs, the majority struggle to be worth 4figures. Out of the hundreds of dogs i have known only a handful have made more money than they have cost, so i'll stand by my comment, there isn't any money in it for the majority of owners. But for those lucky enough to get a dog of real quality then they may well make a small return.
But they are few and far between.

Right but then what about the stud fees and pumping puppies out of the brood bitches? Of course these people are in it for the money or the hope of making money!

There is also a difference between dumping and putting a dog up for rehoming at the end of it's career.

Not a lot quiet frankly! You say these people love their dogs – not in my world. They are not even dogs to them but a commodity to be got rid of once its served its short service.

There are many who are unable to take their dogs home for whatever reason. And remember retired greyhounds at the rehoming centres are still being paid for by their owners.

See if anyone went to a breeder poodle and said yes I want a dog but Im going to keep it in kennels for a few years then I wont take it home but will stick it in rescue to deal with I can just imagine what answer you would get. If you cant take the dog home don’t get the dog – simple as really and would certainly help to reduce the number of dogs bred in the long run.

No they are not certainly not for the whole amount! And what about those dogs in independent rescues? Those owners don’t want to know – do not pay for their upkeep and wont even acknowledge the dogs are theirs.


And what is the difference between that and a show'er placing their dog up for rehoming once it no longer makes the grade as that happens a hell of a lot too. The only difference is that it is easy to get rid of a show dog there are no laws protecting them.

Can you provide the statistics on this – as those against commercial racing have been asked. How many showers are holding places in rescue compared to greyhounds? Also 2 wrongs don’t make a right and its not really an argument to continue commercial racing

But i agree there is less racing now compared to years ago, but the breeding numbers haven't dropped, which is why i think that needs to be addressed. There are two reasons why the amount of racing has dropped, firstly it is illegal for unlicensed racing, or flapping tracks, as this was purely for making money. And secondly, there isn't enough money to be made by track organisers.

No I think you’ll find that there is less racing because people are becoming aware of the cruelty involved in this industry and find it no longer acceptable. The breeding numbers haven’t dropped because of greed both by the breeders and those hoping to get a dog that will make them money – simple really.

The mistake that is always made is to tar all hound owners with the same brush, as only a minority and often the wealthier owners are the bad element. There are hundreds of owners that love their dogs and would never dream of seeing their dog harmed.

There maybe hundreds who wouldn’t see their dogs harmed but neither would they see them in their own home for the rest of their life, they are still considered disposable to enable another one to come in – that to me is not loving your dog at all!
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I-mac77
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26-03-2008, 12:18 PM
I find it a little insulting to say that those of us who are anti are niave enough to only go on what is reported in the media – are you saying that the governments report was only based on newspaper articles. If the media is only reporting the negative side is it possible because the negative side far outweighs the positive. The argument we are better than them is not really an argument at all.
I didn't mean that you are niave, but how many who have posted comments have actually been to greyhound racing kennels, and actually had involvement with greyhound racing? Very few if any I bet! The media only reports on the negative because that's what sells papers. Go and buy the Greyhound star, you'll get both positive and negative comments!

Why assume people have not been – seen the negative side and decided its not worth it for the harm that happens to these dogs. My dogs love to run and chase when they want not when they have to.
Because I would condemn anyone that has stood idiolly by whilst the Negatives have happened! PLease could you tell me how they greyhounds are made to chase! Every dog that is on the track are ones that chose to chase. Jade is one that chose not to!

But that’s just the point, it is not a minority element and even if not all involved in racing approved of what was happening the vast majority knew what was going on and did nothing about it, and it is one of many places that greyhounds can be disposed of. You consider those dogs the lucky ones.
Yes I consider those the lucky ones because they are the ones that were killed rather than have identifying marks removed whilst alive and then dumped! I didn't say it was right! Why don't the NGRC use DNA records, the technology is out there, it would cut down the number of dogs dumped then! It is a minority, how many greyhounds were bred last year, compared to the number to have these trajic consequences!

The industry in no way can regulate itself now let alone if you want more rules put in place. Most owner, breeders, trainers ignore the rules now because the industry doesn’t actually care enough to enforce the rules.
That is my point, the industry needs to sort itself out! And most owner/trainers and breeders don't ignore the rules! Or certainly not the ones I know. Also remember with greyhounds, a breeder is not the same as in the outside world.

I did wonder when the rescues would be held account for this industries mess! If these owners are all caring why are these dogs looking for rescue places in the first place? Yes your right many cant get them into rescue because the rescues are full, do you really think if rescues had laxer policies all those greyhounds would get homes? Much as we love these dogs not everyone wants one.
I am not saying the rescue centers are at fault, and besides they aren't rescue centres as they don't rescue dogs! The ones I am referring to are rehoming centres, which need to look at how they assess potential homes! As I have already pointed out, too many are being bred, so no not all of them will get homes, but I have witnessed people that would give a dog a lovely home, but are turned down because their face doesn't fit!

If you love these dogs so much why would you not have one anyway – just because commercial racing is banned? There are hundreds of breeds out there that are not longer doing what they were so called bred for – they have not died out.
Because a greyhound is a hunter, and are not allowed to do what they want! The grey's that have come away from the track or coarse are the show hounds, which are nothing like these wonderful dogs. Hence why the greyhound we know would die out! All we'd be left with is the show greyhound, which in my opinion is awful!

No money??? The breeders are making money, the owners are making money (ok not a lot) the bookies are making huge amounts of money!
Please tell me how the owners make money, as I'd like to know! The only owners that make money are those that have money to start with! I agree bookies make huge amounts of money! Breeders make little money, remember breeders don't get the money for the pups they breed! Depending on the trainer, some make some money, some make none!

It may be in your nature but not in everyones, the racing of afghans and terriers has gone of for years and you don’t see them being dumped once they are not fast enough or killed before they even get on the track.
Only because it isn't as big as greyhound racing. It could easily have been terrier or Afghans racing that we were talking about instead, if greys weren't there! It is human nature to gamble, why is LAs Vegas one of the most popular places to visit!

Right so all those dogs in rescue are from people making money – well quite frankly there is a hell of a lot of them making money then not the minority. So if as you say they don’t make money why get another dog? In the hope that this one might make it round the track quicker so they can make money! Of course there is also the chance of selling them to the Spanish hunting market – now that’s caring.
That isn't what I said is it? Most people get a dog because they like seeing the racing, and want to be part of it, but for whatever reason they are unable to take one home! Some get one because they can't have a pet at home, but want something to walk, and to fuss! The ones that buy a dog in the hope it will be quicker are the wealthier ones, most can't afford those dogs! Only the very top dogs make money! To make money they need to win on average two normal races a month! Not many dogs can do that!

Right but then what about the stud fees and pumping puppies out of the brood bitches? Of course these people are in it for the money or the hope of making money!
But this only happens to a few bitches, most are never bred from! So is only a minority, and even fewer dogs are used as stud dogs! You can only use a stud dog if it is good enough, so as most people buy their pup long before it is racing, there is no way to tell whether you are likely to be able to use it as a stud dog or not! SO they didn't get in it for the money, although if they get lucky with their dog it will be good enough!

See if anyone went to a breeder poodle and said yes I want a dog but Im going to keep it in kennels for a few years then I wont take it home but will stick it in rescue to deal with I can just imagine what answer you would get. If you cant take the dog home don’t get the dog – simple as really and would certainly help to reduce the number of dogs bred in the long run.
And why are these dogs kept in licensed kennels! Because people aren't allowed to train their own dogs! So in your opinion you think that stopping people from owning a greyhound unless they can take it home would solve the problem do you. Yes in the long run, it would lower the numbers being bred, but in the meantime the situation would get a whole lot worse. Plus this is part of the problem for the abuse some of these suffer! Because the owner is responsible for the care of the dog, until ownership is signed over, dogs are cut apart so they can't get identified!

Can you provide the statistics on this – as those against commercial racing have been asked. How many showers are holding places in rescue compared to greyhounds? Also 2 wrongs don’t make a right and its not really an argument to continue commercial racing
No I can't, I can only comment on those I have observed. I am just stating that this is effectively the same! A show'er who rehomes a dog because it isn't good enough is no different to a racing greyhound owner that puts their dog up for rehoming because it isn't fast enough! Due to the numbers involved obviously this happens more frequently than show dogs! But it still happens!

No I think you’ll find that there is less racing because people are becoming aware of the cruelty involved in this industry and find it no longer acceptable. The breeding numbers haven’t dropped because of greed both by the breeders and those hoping to get a dog that will make them money – simple really.
There is less racing as unlicensed track are now illegal as they were seen as cruel! Very few licensed tracks have closed in recent years! And as already stated, breeders make little money, it is the owners of the good dogs being bred from that make the money!

The ultimate goal in greyhound racing is to win the derby, the ultimate goal in showing is to win crufts, the winner of both will make lots of money from the offspring, is either worse than the other!

There maybe hundreds who wouldn’t see their dogs harmed but neither would they see them in their own home for the rest of their life, they are still considered disposable to enable another one to come in – that to me is not loving your dog at all!
I agree, there are hundreds/thousands who wouldn't want harm, but I don't think they view them as disposable, because if that was the case, they would have them put to sleep, or disposed of, not up for rehoming! There are many reasons for people not keeping their hounds after racing, and not loving them is only one reason. Some greyhounds aren't suited to home life (only a minority though)

And as a side note one of the worst culprits for rehoming their dogs once their career is over, that I know, runs one of the retired greyhound welfare centres!


Finally, my point isn't that greyhound racing is fine, in fact far from it. But the media would have you believe that everyone involved is in it for the money, and people only own the dogs to make money. This is far from the truth, most trainers get involved because they love the dogs, there is only a small amount of money made in training. Although the trainers that are fortunate enough to have a great racer in their kennels are likely to sucessful financially too. They are a minority though! I'd ask you to find me an average trainer that is wealthy!
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26-03-2008, 12:21 PM
No I dont think it should be abolished, there are good and bad in all walks of animal life.

Tighter restrictions, of cause, but even then you will get the element of people who would abuse it.

Even if it was banned, it would not stop, look at all the other animal welfare laws...docking/hunting, they are all a farce.

What about the Horse Racing industry.... now there is a sport that needs tighter regulations.... who cries for them.

Can you ever see "horse racing" be abolished.!!!

My cousin used to work in a Greyhound racing yard, many many yrs ago, I used to go with her on a Sat , those dogs where well loved, well looked after, they where adorable, not all people abuse their dogs, and take them up the fields for a bullet , when they have finished their carrier.
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26-03-2008, 12:22 PM
I would also like to say, that I'd much rather see the old fashioned form of competing with greyhounds, over racing round a track. But seeing as greyhound racing isn't going to disappear, I would like to see many improvements made so that the atrocities that occur within the industry are minimised.
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26-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
No I dont think it should be abolished, there are good and bad in all walks of animal life.

Tighter restrictions, of cause, but even then you will get the element of people who would abuse it.

Even if it was banned, it would not stop, look at all the other animal welfare laws...docking/hunting, they are all a farce.

What about the Horse Racing industry.... now there is a sport that needs tighter regulations.... who cries for them.

Can you ever see "horse racing" be abolished.!!!

My cousin used to work in a Greyhound racing yard, many many yrs ago, I used to go with her on a Sat , those dogs where well loved, well looked after, they where adorable, not all people abuse their dogs, and take them up the fields for a bullet , when they have finished their carrier.
Finally someone else with my thought

Where did your cousin used to work?
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