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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Lucky Star
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04-05-2009, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
What I meant by this was that Hal was an alpha male dog. He was born an alpha !
Hi

May I please ask a question? How do you know if a dog is born an alpha male? I assume it's some type of behaviour that the dog exhibits?

Thanks.
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
If he recognised you as an alpha female he`d be humping your leg surely
OK - your small child goes to firework displays with you, no problem. Then one night Mum starts to scream and exhibit fear. Does that child not join in and exhibit fear? Because that instinct - to observe and act on other`s reactions - is pretty basic survival. Dogs exhibit learned and instinctive behaviour. He has learned there is something to fear, This does not translate to Gnasher is a a Super Leader Who Must Be Obeyed IMO, it merely means the dog is smart enough to get worried if someone shows him there is something to be afraid of. If the entire crowd had stampeded in panic, your dog would also have learned the same thing. Would this have made all the crowd Ellis-type people?
No ! That would be very disrespectful ! However, Hal being Hal ... I need not elucidate, suffice to say he only did it once !

Your example on the child at the firework party is a good one, because with humans we not only are influenced by our alpha male and female, otherwise known as our parents, we also have the phenomenon of mass hysteria to deal with as well. So, even if Mum stays as cool as a cucumber, if all around her are screaming in fear at the fireworks, will her child then be scared? The answer is yes, but the cool, calmness of her authoritative mother should be enough to persuade her that there is nothing to fear.

Gnasher, the Super Leader !! I like that !! Sadly, untrue though, but I do try !!

Now here's an interesting thought. Do wolves and dogs have mass hysteria? Or is this is a purely human phenomenon? I am thinking Lemmings here ? Sorry, this is going off thread, but it is an interesting thought.

As for my dog picking up on human mass hysteria? Certainly not, Hal was far too cool to do that. he would have let all the humans panic and rush off, and then would have gone round sniffing the seats that they had vacated, one of his least desirable but favourite pastimes ! Tai would have gone round sniffing to see if the panicked humans had left behind any tasty scraps ! The difference between an alpha and a beta maybe !!
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Wysiwyg
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04-05-2009, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Mini was confused as well, Wys !! And I've confused myself !! I've answered her post, and I think you'll find the answer covers your confusion too.
Yes I think so, got it now!

Shaun Ellis ... is hugely helpful to dog owners by being able to help them interpret their dog's body language, and why they do certain things, or react in a certain Way. This is because dogs are the direct descendents of wolves and still present with the same foibles, for want of a better word.
I see where you are coming from but he's still not a dog expert and it annoys me he is apparently trying to be one. He may or may not know about wolves (that's another debate ) but to then start giving advice based on what we know from science, is an incorrect way to live with our dogs is not fair.
It's short changing owners and dogs.
(I know you disagree Gnasher but ... )

Whether you "like" Shaun or not, he has lived with both wild and domesticated wolves, and is just about the most fascinating person to talk to about this fascinating subject.
I don't dislike him from what I've seen (only on tv) but would seriously disagree with him giving advice on how to live with dogs Was it him who was on the programme the other night about living with animals - someone was giving advice on guarding food from the nearby dogs using body language - if it was him, then frankly I have to say, he's an idiot. If it wasn't him, then I will take that back obviously!

Wys
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Its interesting to hear you say that....his opinions/views/ideas (whatever you wish to call them) were a bit different when I went to his talks.

He also made a big point of teeling us that he was not a dog trainer - he had worked with wolves and felt that most dogs would not benifit from his theories.

Good point Tassle, but this was at a Northern Inuit and Utonagan meet. In the case of wolfy breeds (such as Mals, Huskies etc.) he takes on board their palpable differences.

Good point though !
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Wysiwyg
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04-05-2009, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
For me the evidence (and there are many references posted in this thread) and my own observations after 60 years of being around dogs is overwhelmingly against the Alpha concept.

I would say the numbers in the poll are not a true reflection of those who believe in the Alpha concept. Many myself included posted in the 'other ' option .
Agree with your post Mini, nice one

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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04-05-2009, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
What I meant by this was that Hal was an alpha male dog. He was born an alpha ! According to Shaun Ellis, this is very rare in the wolf and dog world, for obvious reasons. If there was an alpha born in every litter virtually, there would be trouble. Alphas are therefore very rare amongst wolves and dogs.
But no dog is born an alpha.
I totally disagree with Ellis and so do a huge number of behaviourists out there, who have a lot more experience of dogs than he does!

(Of course David Mech states that alpha means to be a parent really, and if given enough time, space etc all wolves will eventually become an alpha in that sense only).

Also if he was an alpha in the sense of the word often used, you'd have had to physically fight with him as he would have seen you and your husband as usurpers, or would you disagree? There would have been a fight for hierarchy if the model as perceived by alpha supporters is correct.

Wys
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
Sorry but what you post is nonsense. It is impossible for an animal to have no fear.

And if we follow your thinking, by showing fear he should have killed you because by your standards alphas don't show fear and taken over. When you really dissect the claims you make they make no sense whatsoever.
You haven't answered my question though Promethean ! I would love to hear your explanation.

I honestly cannot think of anything that Hal was scared of. Obviously, he would be terrified of all the extreme things such as fire, I am talking about normal, every day occurrences, such as sirens, thunder, lightening, guns etc. He stood up to a charging flock of tups, very aggressive bullocks that had surrounded him in my parent's field, a savage attack when he was on his chain by next door's Airedale, who was larger and more powerful than him, ditto a GSD, ditto a rottweiler cross who scalped him, I have never seen him scared of anything ... except for thunder and fireworks, caused entirely by me.

Lose my alpha status? Kill me? No, of course not, that is exactly the point I am making ! BECAUSE I was alpha female, this is why he became so scared of the thunder and fireworks ! I had to teach him not to be scared. He WAS genuinely petrified, because I had shown such intense fear. Totally my fault, but at that time I really couldn't help it.
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Wysiwyg
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04-05-2009, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
No ! That would be very disrespectful ! However, Hal being Hal ... I need not elucidate, suffice to say he only did it once !

!
It sounds funny but it's actually a good point. The true alpha pair are only the breeding pair, so if you and Hal were alpha ... well, I won't go on....

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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04-05-2009, 03:00 PM
Gnasher, I'm not sure if we've done this or not but can you describe exactly what you believe about the alpha status?

I get the impression you sometimes use it as a word (ie as many of us might say "leader" or "parent" ) but sometimes you seem to attach more importance to it, which is when I believe it clashes with the science that we now know and it can be confusing.

If you could just clarify it would help, thanks

Wys
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Gnasher
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04-05-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
But no dog is born an alpha.
I totally disagree with Ellis and so do a huge number of behaviourists out there, who have a lot more experience of dogs than he does!

(Of course David Mech states that alpha means to be a parent really, and if given enough time, space etc all wolves will eventually become an alpha in that sense only).

Also if he was an alpha in the sense of the word often used, you'd have had to physically fight with him as he would have seen you and your husband as usurpers, or would you disagree? ?There would have been a fight for hierarchy if the model is correct.

Wys
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I absolutely agree Wys, there are a lot of people who disagree with Shaun, but I just happen not to be one of them ! He has a very interesting theory that the position in the womb determines whether or not a dog or bitch will be an alpha. I cannot remember exactly the in's and out's of this, but I think his theory is that the nearest to the neck of the womb a puppy can be for as much of the pregnancy as possible, the more likely that pup will be an alpha. I may have got that wrong, I will have to ask him, but it was something along these lines.

Alphas don't fight unless they absolutely have to. In a wolf pack, the alpha male lolls around most of the time having fun. It is the Beta Enforcers who do all the fighting. The same with an alpha dog. Hal very very rarely, if ever started a fight. But my goodness, he attracted trouble with a capital T. He was always being attacked, never by bitches, but by other male dogs, usually entire, but not always. He just ducked and weaved, looked bored and kept out of trouble, although as he got older he would defend himself if things were getting a bit troublesome. He liked to saved all his energy for sex ! He wasn't interested in food, or fighting.
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