Gnasher - do you mean this dog??
http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...ideos/03208_09
That clip has been discussed before on here - I cant find the longer clip
But from memory the basic run of it was

That dog had been rescued - from the cuts on its neck its thought it had been abused prob with a choke collar

The guy rescues dogs to move them onto other homes

They had totaly NO problems with the dog in any way whatsoever except when he decided to try alpha rolling the dog in the sitting room - so they called CM in

The dog was timid and unsure of CM to start with - CM even comments on how the dog is fearful
THe dog was v tense in the house and not liking CM prodding him about on the slippy floor - was telling him that in his best doggy BL

THen the owner added the muzzle - which the dog obviously had a bad association with
Not only was it being manhandled by a totaly stranger now it knew something bad was happening cos the owner always put the muzzle on before trying to force it to submit

BUt of course CM contined to push the dog when it was in a reactive state and unable to learn anything much at all
The fight went on until the dogs air supply was cut off

That clip made me cry, that poor abused dog was doing its best to communicate with people but they were just not listning
There was no reason to want to have to pin the dog anyway - the guy just wanted to to prove that he had the power over the dog - but if you did want the dog to roll on its back why not teach it as a fan trick rather than make it a battle

Nothing to be impressed with there





Shona - cant wait to see your trick! clicker training is so much fun - have just trained Ben to cross his front paws - then realised it was not a v matcho trick for my pretty boy

I never get the whole 'My wolfy type dog is so independant and difficult to train'. I read it all the time on Dogsey. But from people's descriptions the dogs don't sound any different to the foster dogs I've had that have come to me with no training (unless they all have identity crises!).

Exactly - and I think it is one of these things that the more people post about how difficuly wolfy breeds are the more that people will believe in the mystique of the badly behaived wolfy dog - when a pretty easy web search brings up these dogs in obedience and agility

I think all breeds are trainable - once you figure out how to push their buttons - and if you dont train them - or do it badly any breed has the chance to become a totaly nightmare to live with

Yeah, I've definately seen that with the foster dogs. Some breeds are different to train than others, but I wouldn't use the word 'difficult'.

Staffies I've found a little more difficult (although the 18 month old we had knew lots of commands). Tilly is different to teach commands to than Bryan. Bryan will try lots of htings to get a treat. Tilly will just look at you and say 'Give....me.....that....treat.....'

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

"What critics are primarily concerned with, however, is the psychological stress that dogs are placed under during the show. Many dogs that offer avoidance behaviors at the start of the show are often pushed to the point of aggression.

One disturbing example is JonBee, a Jindo who is forced to lie on his side. After a significant and dangerous struggle (during which the dog appears to have urinated), the dog finally gives up and allows himself to be rolled over. However, the dog is not relaxed. Quite the opposite..."

"JonBee, muzzled, is lifted off the ground by a choke chain, a procedure known as "stringing up". Prior to this, the dog had not only shown no signs of aggression but had been attempting to avoid interaction with the star completely. "

In my view all JonBee would have learnt is that new people to the house are going to be violent with him. He was trying to avoid, that was all

Wys
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Thanks for that, I'd seen the episode ages ago but couldn't remembe what had happened to JonBee.

Wys
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The opposition Reflex was initially called the Freedom Reflex by the 1904 Nobel Prize winner, Ivan P. Pavlov (1849-1936).

If you pull a dog (almost or any other animal) it will react by pulling away. Try it with a human, we do it too. I've seen Millan and Pattison act against the opposition reflex because they see dominance and they have to (in their words) WIN.

Sorry to harp on about the Jindo but I'm just spending a bit of relax time catching up with threads, I've got to get back to revision soon. I cried too - I can't bear to watch dogs who are crying out to be heard and who are not heard by those who are supposed to be more intelligent. It actually makes me so angry - but also to be frank, very distressed.

One reason I can't watch him any more.

Wys
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Shona looking forward to the video by the way

Wys
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this is where I find my time and training with horses helps my training, understanding balance with animals often helps with training,{its just a bit adapted from riding to handling on the ground} as you say pull a dog is will pull away, but....if you put your hands on the side of a dog and push it gently away....it leans towards you