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louise!
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28-03-2012, 03:07 PM
I think this is a difficult issue for several reasons. However I do think that in an ideal world, cats wouldn't go outside unsupervised at all. The outside world presents many many dangers to an unsupervised cat left to roam, and as already pointed out that's not just an assumption but a statistically proven fact. Not only are outdoor cats at risk from being hit by cars, but you also have attacks from stray dogs and large wildlife, attacks from humans, loss, theft, getting stuck in dangerous places ie car bonnets and enclosed, rarely open areas etc.

Also I do feel that as a dog owner, me owning a dog should not in any way influence or impact on other peoplem and not one of them does. They play in my enclosed garden, rarely bark, they are walked on a lead on the streets and don't approach other people when off lead and their existance has no real detrimental impact on my neighbours as far as I can determine.

My neighbours cats however frequently defacates and urinates in our back garden, has ruined many of our plants, will torment my guinea pigs when out in a run in the back garden, frequently wakes me up at night by fighting with other cats, has created a 'path' in the fence and the vegetation in between our garden and its owners, and has swiped at my 8 week old puppy as she was playing in MY garden while the cat was sunning under a tree without us knowing. And I find it annoying that someone elses animal can cause me irritance, even if that irritance is mild. I am completely responsible for my dog, why are cat owners not fully responsible for their cat? And while I make every effort to socialise my dogs with cats when they are puppies and raise them to be relatively mild mannered with them, they are dogs and will always be unpredictable and if they did attack a cat that was in my garden on my property, that wouldn't be my fault but the cats owner. 100%. If my dog was shot chasing a farmer's livestock on their land, it would be my fault. Not that I've seen anyone debating that, but I like to get it in there!

So yes, in an ideal world I don't think cats would go outside. But I have never ever met a cat that was content to live inside for its entire life, and therein lies the difficulty. My friend raised 3 kittens in a terraced house on a busy main road and for that reason decided from the outset that she was never going to let them out and because they were kittens it wouldn't be a problem. But they pined to go outside from the moment they were aware enough to look out of windows and she had to give in because they were literally depressed. So as much as I don't like outdoor cats, I don't see an alternative so I live with it.

Originally Posted by labradork View Post

As for fouling in peoples gardens, it isn't ideal, however there are deterrents that can be purchased to ensure that cats do not foul gardens. The same deterrents cannot be used for the irresponsible dog owners who allow their dogs to foul all over the pavements. Most dog turds are a damn sight larger than a cat turd, too. Also, at least cats are discreet about it by usually burying their deposits. ]
Not trying to argue, just curious as to how cat owners justify such things but. WHY ON EARTH should I have to spend money to prevent someone elses pet from defacing my property? And what on earth does the size of the crap have to do with it? Cat urine is equally offensive as far as I'm concerned, perhaps more so becase I have no way of picking it up! There are definitely irresponsible disgusting people who let their dogs poo on the street and don't remove it, but because I am not one of those people that doesn't apply to me and I can therefore still justifiably be annoyed by cats in my garden!
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dizzi
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28-03-2012, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Interesting that, I've been told by a few of their representatives over the years that they don't agree with keeping cats totally confined, when one of ours went walkabouts briefly a year or so ago they echoed this when I rang to leave his details and was told that the more "natural" ranging life was better and that this came with certain risks.
I don't dispute anyone keeping their cats inside personally, I'm lucky I can let mine out. But my boys would go wild if kept inside, they get cabin fever and start causing trouble if it's bad weather and I won't let them out.
Our current cat I've had at least a decade and she was over 3 years old before that so things may well have changed since we got her.

Allegedly she'd never stand a chance if faced with a dog (she's got a back leg missing so can't up-jump easily)... however, seeing the way she rules this house with a paw of iron and can command a sofa to be made free for her with just a hiss - I doubt it - just choose not to risk it since there are a few local cats regularly scrapping around here.
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labradork
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28-03-2012, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by louise! View Post
I think this is a difficult issue for several reasons. However I do think that in an ideal world, cats wouldn't go outside unsupervised at all. The outside world presents many many dangers to an unsupervised cat left to roam, and as already pointed out that's not just an assumption but a statistically proven fact. Not only are outdoor cats at risk from being hit by cars, but you also have attacks from stray dogs and large wildlife, attacks from humans, loss, theft, getting stuck in dangerous places ie car bonnets and enclosed, rarely open areas etc.

Also I do feel that as a dog owner, me owning a dog should not in any way influence or impact on other peoplem and not one of them does. They play in my enclosed garden, rarely bark, they are walked on a lead on the streets and don't approach other people when off lead and their existance has no real detrimental impact on my neighbours as far as I can determine.

My neighbours cats however frequently defacates and urinates in our back garden, has ruined many of our plants, will torment my guinea pigs when out in a run in the back garden, frequently wakes me up at night by fighting with other cats, has created a 'path' in the fence and the vegetation in between our garden and its owners, and has swiped at my 8 week old puppy as she was playing in MY garden while the cat was sunning under a tree without us knowing. And I find it annoying that someone elses animal can cause me irritance, even if that irritance is mild. I am completely responsible for my dog, why are cat owners not fully responsible for their cat? And while I make every effort to socialise my dogs with cats when they are puppies and raise them to be relatively mild mannered with them, they are dogs and will always be unpredictable and if they did attack a cat that was in my garden on my property, that wouldn't be my fault but the cats owner. 100%. If my dog was shot chasing a farmer's livestock on their land, it would be my fault. Not that I've seen anyone debating that, but I like to get it in there!

So yes, in an ideal world I don't think cats would go outside. But I have never ever met a cat that was content to live inside for its entire life, and therein lies the difficulty. My friend raised 3 kittens in a terraced house on a busy main road and for that reason decided from the outset that she was never going to let them out and because they were kittens it wouldn't be a problem. But they pined to go outside from the moment they were aware enough to look out of windows and she had to give in because they were literally depressed. So as much as I don't like outdoor cats, I don't see an alternative so I live with it.



Not trying to argue, just curious as to how cat owners justify such things but. WHY ON EARTH should I have to spend money to prevent someone elses pet from defacing my property? And what on earth does the size of the crap have to do with it? Cat urine is equally offensive as far as I'm concerned, perhaps more so becase I have no way of picking it up! There are definitely irresponsible disgusting people who let their dogs poo on the street and don't remove it, but because I am not one of those people that doesn't apply to me and I can therefore still justifiably be annoyed by cats in my garden!
Firstly, you can't compare the two. Comparing a cat to a dog in any context is like comparing a pet hamster to a pet snake -- two entirely different animals with entirely different needs, that are not in any way related. Cats are pretty much wild in nature while the vast majority of dogs are anything but.

In grand scheme of things, dogs cause far more trouble to the average person than cats ever do. Perhaps not to you directly but to others. So I'm afraid I don't think anyone who moans about cats being a huge problem in comparison to dogs has a leg to stand on.

As for having to spend money to keep cats out of your garden, you could take that attitude with anything really. WHY ON EARTH should my friend have to keep spending money on his garden pond (for nets, alarms, new fish) because the herons & other birds come and eat his expensive koi? WHY ON EARTH should my grandmother keep spending money on anti-squirrel deterrents so she can continue to feed the wild birds? WHY ON EARTH should my uncle have to extend his garden fence to stop the neighbours dog trying to get over? why....because it happens in the real world! you can either spend a bit of money and get the desired results or ignore it, spend nothing and moan about it -- I know which I'd rather do.

What does the size of the crap have to do with anything? quite a lot actually. Ever stepped in a large-breed sized dump? or ran the wheels of your bike or buggy over one? that is always good fun to get off shoes and tires. How many cats do you see defecating on the streets and in parks? how many times on average do you step in cat poo? how many times have you had to dodge cat poo when walking to the local shops?
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Razcox
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28-03-2012, 04:04 PM
i love my cat (she lives at my parents) she was brought as a kitten when we had the small holding to control the rodents and has always been an out door cat. Now she is 16 she doesnt go out as much now. She is also a bit on the fat side so doesnt stand much chance of catching anything.

If we were ever to get a new cat then it would be an indoor cat unless we lived on a small holding or in the middle of now where again.

I do find it irritating that cat owners have zero responsibility for the actions of their cat. Pooing and noise aside they are a predator and will prey on small furries but the owners seem to think this is 'ok' for cats. Its the double standard that irks me TBH. If a dog were to catch and kill a small furry of a neighbour say, the owner of the dog would be blamed. A cat does it and its no ones fault except maybe the small furries owner for not making sure the housing was cat proof. This to me is wrong and there should be more done about it - Like make the cat owner pay for the damages.
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Jet&Copper
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28-03-2012, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by louise! View Post
Not trying to argue, just curious as to how cat owners justify such things but. WHY ON EARTH should I have to spend money to prevent someone elses pet from defacing my property? And what on earth does the size of the crap have to do with it? Cat urine is equally offensive as far as I'm concerned, perhaps more so becase I have no way of picking it up! There are definitely irresponsible disgusting people who let their dogs poo on the street and don't remove it, but because I am not one of those people that doesn't apply to me and I can therefore still justifiably be annoyed by cats in my garden!
The same reason I spend money protecting my chickens from foxes, or my fish from the evil big heron, or the OH spends so much time trying to shoot rats....

*Shrug* maybe I'm too laid back in life, but I really do think a bit of cat pee/poo isn't worth stressing over.....
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Jet&Copper
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28-03-2012, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
why....because it happens in the real world! you can either spend a bit of money and get the desired results or ignore it, spend nothing and moan about it -- I know which I'd rather do.
Exactly. Good post.
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cava14una
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28-03-2012, 04:14 PM
I've always heard cats described as free agents it does go both ways I'm pretty sure you don't have to report a RTA involving a cat but do with a dog.

I always thought of myself as more of a cat person than a dog person although I've only owned 3 cats as opposed to 15 dogs. I can't walk past a cat without stopping for a chat

I'm actually planning on another cat once I am ratless he/she will be an indoor cat as the road that passes my house takes me ages to cross so a cat wouldn't stand a chance. Previous cat was indoor but had a run and chalet in garden so was allowed outside if confined.

Reason I have decided to have another cat is my neighbour who is a great gardener and bird lover says that although she isn't wild about some of cats habits she is very found of them and will look after mine quite happily.

Sorry bit of a ramble
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Sosha
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28-03-2012, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
As for taunting other animals, I don't hear of many cats killing livestock, unlike dogs. I also don't hear of cats killing other cats and dogs, unlike dogs. I don't hear of cats killing people or mauling children in the local park, unlike dogs. I don't hear of cats winding up/jumping up/chasing children/joggers/cyclists, unlike dogs.

As for fouling in peoples gardens, it isn't ideal, however there are deterrents that can be purchased to ensure that cats do not foul gardens. The same deterrents cannot be used for the irresponsible dog owners who allow their dogs to foul all over the pavements. Most dog turds are a damn sight larger than a cat turd, too. Also, at least cats are discreet about it by usually burying their deposits. I've never stepped on a cat turd, but stepping on an enormous dog sh*t as you are just about to get into your car for work is just a delight in the morning.
Neighbours cat died as a result of a new, unfriendly neighbourhood Tom, I have stepped in unburried cat scat - cats here seem to have given up on it. I have salt watered a greyhound who was mildly shredded by two cats on her evening walk.

That said I prefer to see cats out and about - though subscribe to the bell on collar for prolific killers. I also subscribe to "If your Tom is beating up every cat on the block you should remove his tackle" and the acceptance that freedom of wild animals carries the same risks.
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spot
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28-03-2012, 05:21 PM
Interesting debate! For those who debate WHY SHOULD I ....... on both sides.

If cats are classed as wild animals why should I offer to pay vet bills if my dogs kills/injures a cat whether in their own garden or on the streets? Equally why or should a cat owner offer to pay for vet bills when a cat has damaged my dogs?

I have had both things happen to me - I offered and paid vet bills no-one offered to pay for my dogs that were injured by cats.

And why are phones such a pain to type into
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Jet&Copper
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28-03-2012, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by spot View Post
Interesting debate! For those who debate WHY SHOULD I ....... on both sides.

If cats are classed as wild animals why should I offer to pay vet bills if my dogs kills/injures a cat whether in their own garden or on the streets? Equally why or should a cat owner offer to pay for vet bills when a cat has damaged my dogs?

I have had both things happen to me - I offered and paid vet bills no-one offered to pay for my dogs that were injured by cats.

And why are phones such a pain to type into
I never attempt to post when I'm on my phone - to much effort!!!

You do make a good point with the vet bills
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