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smokeybear
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01-06-2011, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Logically speaking - if a dog was born dog aggressive he would attack his littermates and his dam. So his chances of survival would be minimal.

Well there are documented studies of littermates killing their siblings, the logic is that this MAXIMISES their chances of survival of course because there is less competition for milk!

It would have less success with its dam due to size issues, unless it was a GREMLIN of course!

And it would not NEED to attack its mother as of course as she is the source of a valuable resource.

Breeders of dogs designed to fight will only see this as a further demonstration of their breeding success.

Sad but true.
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Sara
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02-06-2011, 10:23 AM
You guys are giving me great arguments! There are some fantastic posts here. Thanks! I dont know if I'll continue the debate on the other forum, I'm done with her not READING anything. I like this discussion MUCH better But I do think I'll highlight the general consensus... And I may I steal the loaded gun quote?
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aerolor
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02-06-2011, 10:27 AM
I also believe that inborn pathological aggression in puppies is very rare and think there would be an organic reason for it. I think variations of the natural (self preservation) type of aggression will occur according to what type of dog has been bred. There will also be variations in boldness and shyness, but these traits are able to be influenced and moulded (positively or negatively) by environment and training. My rationale for thinking this is because I bred a litter of ten flatcoats some while ago and one puppy was very aggressive and seemed almost wild. He was very aggressive towards his siblings and he did not respond very well to being handled. He was not a shy pup in the litter, but he did not welcome handling and he was quite the bully. Things did not improve as he got older and I was convinced that there must be an unseen reason for how he was. Unfortunately, when he was about 12 weeks old he started with severe epileptic fits. In the end, the kindest thing was to have him put out of his misery. So, in this case I believe his aggression from being in the nest definitely had an organic cause.
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smokeybear
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02-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
.
True aggression (for no reason) is incredibly rare. Most aggression is a reaction to a situation.
I am not sure I agree that "True aggression" = for no reason?

There is ALWAYS a reason, it is just not always apparent to the viewer.

The reason may be organic (that is a reason)

Territorial
Resource (covers a huge range)
Sex

etc etc
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SarahJade
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03-06-2011, 08:00 AM
Getting very very interesting.
Jenn~n~Luke's post about accepting who your dog is, and why should they all be dog friendly. I agree that you should be happy and grateful for your dog, but I often see dogs which are reacting rather than dogs which just want to be left out of the way. If a dog doesn't like other dogs I expect it to be able to act like a person who doesn't like other people should. Not to try attack, bark, growl or nip just because someone has walked on the path at the other side of the street. If a person walked past you and you weren't a people person would you should threats and abuse at them? Would you hit them if you could reach? It is these dogs which I would class as DA, these dogs which need training to change their behaviour.
If your dog just avoids other dogs and may growls when another comes really close as a warning 'leave me alone' then yeah maybe he/she doesn't like other dogs and that may be fine, but to me this isn't true DA by any means, this is just claiming space and making their wants known to others, just as I would if someone came into my space without invitation.
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Tupacs2legs
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03-06-2011, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by SarahJade View Post
Getting very very interesting.
Jenn~n~Luke's post about accepting who your dog is, and why should they all be dog friendly. I agree that you should be happy and grateful for your dog, but I often see dogs which are reacting rather than dogs which just want to be left out of the way. If a dog doesn't like other dogs I expect it to be able to act like a person who doesn't like other people should. Not to try attack, bark, growl or nip just because someone has walked on the path at the other side of the street. If a person walked past you and you weren't a people person would you should threats and abuse at them? Would you hit them if you could reach? It is these dogs which I would class as DA, these dogs which need training to change their behaviour.
If your dog just avoids other dogs and may growls when another comes really close as a warning 'leave me alone' then yeah maybe he/she doesn't like other dogs and that may be fine, but to me this isn't true DA by any means, this is just claiming space and making their wants known to others, just as I would if someone came into my space without invitation.
why? its not a person

some dogs that give it the 'big i am' wouldnt actually follow through with hurting it,its a go away,leave me alone.i iz big and scary,u dont wanna see me...that isnt true DA either.
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ClaireandDaisy
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03-06-2011, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
I am not sure I agree that "True aggression" = for no reason?

There is ALWAYS a reason, it is just not always apparent to the viewer.

The reason may be organic (that is a reason)

Territorial
Resource (covers a huge range)
Sex

etc etc
I was thinking dogs with brain injuries or genetic conditions. So their aggression isn`t a reaction to something (even learned).
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Jenn~n~Luke
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03-06-2011, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by SarahJade View Post
Getting very very interesting.
Jenn~n~Luke's post about accepting who your dog is, and why should they all be dog friendly. I agree that you should be happy and grateful for your dog, but I often see dogs which are reacting rather than dogs which just want to be left out of the way. If a dog doesn't like other dogs I expect it to be able to act like a person who doesn't like other people should. Not to try attack, bark, growl or nip just because someone has walked on the path at the other side of the street. If a person walked past you and you weren't a people person would you should threats and abuse at them? Would you hit them if you could reach? It is these dogs which I would class as DA, these dogs which need training to change their behaviour.
If your dog just avoids other dogs and may growls when another comes really close as a warning 'leave me alone' then yeah maybe he/she doesn't like other dogs and that may be fine, but to me this isn't true DA by any means, this is just claiming space and making their wants known to others, just as I would if someone came into my space without invitation.
Oh I agree with you...I'm not saying that one should not try their best to work through whatever problems their dog might have. My point was more that when and if you ever come to the realization that your individual dog is not going to be good at this or that, comfortable wih a certain situation, or in this case, going to be a social butterfly, then it's time to accept that and not constantly be upset with them or dissapointed, nor contiually setting them up to fail. That doesn't mean that if you have a dog who is reactive, that you stand there and allow them to totally freak out at another dog, etc.

Just an example of what I was really trying to get at with the DA part of my comment:

I know a woman, who is really good with dogs. She owns a pitbull...not her first one either. From the day she got that pup, she tried EVERYTHING she could think of to socialize him and help him to be ok with other dogs and pets. Once in a while he'd be fine, other times, out of the blue...WAMMO...fight to the death. You could never really predict it. She took him to every expert she c ould find and they all said that she'd have to just accept the fact that he wasn't fond of dogs. And not SAFE with dogs. Because she didn't want to admit failure, or feel like she was giving up on her dog, she kept trying. Until one day something happened that made her realize that guess what...I don't NEED him to be Mr. social. As long as I can control him when I take him places, and Im not trying to force him into situations where he has to react...then he's perfectly happy to just hang out with me. Once she realized that, he had a great life. She spent more time doing things he actually enjoyed, instead of trying to fix that one thing that made him inperfect...and the bond between them got much stronger.
Im not saying...don't work with your dog. Don't socialize. Nor am I saying by any means, allow your dog to act like a nutbar whilst out and about. Luke doesn't like certain dogs....or males most of the time now...but he isn't pulling and dragging me all over the place to get at t hem. And if I weren't so afraid of dog fights...and there were actually decent dog owners around here, I'd try to get him around more males and teach him better, but Im NO good indog fights. Its the one part of dog raising that I suck at and I'm not afraid to admit that.
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wilbar
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03-06-2011, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Jenn~n~Luke View Post
Oh I agree with you...I'm not saying that one should not try their best to work through whatever problems their dog might have. My point was more that when and if you ever come to the realization that your individual dog is not going to be good at this or that, comfortable wih a certain situation, or in this case, going to be a social butterfly, then it's time to accept that and not constantly be upset with them or dissapointed, nor contiually setting them up to fail. That doesn't mean that if you have a dog who is reactive, that you stand there and allow them to totally freak out at another dog, etc.

Just an example of what I was really trying to get at with the DA part of my comment:

I know a woman, who is really good with dogs. She owns a pitbull...not her first one either. From the day she got that pup, she tried EVERYTHING she could think of to socialize him and help him to be ok with other dogs and pets. Once in a while he'd be fine, other times, out of the blue...WAMMO...fight to the death. You could never really predict it. She took him to every expert she c ould find and they all said that she'd have to just accept the fact that he wasn't fond of dogs. And not SAFE with dogs. Because she didn't want to admit failure, or feel like she was giving up on her dog, she kept trying. Until one day something happened that made her realize that guess what...I don't NEED him to be Mr. social. As long as I can control him when I take him places, and Im not trying to force him into situations where he has to react...then he's perfectly happy to just hang out with me. Once she realized that, he had a great life. She spent more time doing things he actually enjoyed, instead of trying to fix that one thing that made him inperfect...and the bond between them got much stronger.
Im not saying...don't work with your dog. Don't socialize. Nor am I saying by any means, allow your dog to act like a nutbar whilst out and about. Luke doesn't like certain dogs....or males most of the time now...but he isn't pulling and dragging me all over the place to get at t hem. And if I weren't so afraid of dog fights...and there were actually decent dog owners around here, I'd try to get him around more males and teach him better, but Im NO good indog fights. Its the one part of dog raising that I suck at and I'm not afraid to admit that.
That's really interesting because I've often said that we owners look only at the "problem" behaviour, e.g. the aggressive behaviour, the destruction caused by separation anxiety etc. And then we try to devise a way to fix it. I don't always think this is the right approach. IMO we should be looking at the dog's whole lifestyle, including previous experiences, breeding history, the way it is currently looked after, the bond between owner & dog, health issues, dietary issues etc etc. And all this in the context of what is normal dog behaviour.

So by just picking on the issue that effectively we think is the problem, e.g. aggressive behaviour towards dogs, we could just be looking at the tip of the iceberg, & not taking into acount all the underlying causes & the dog's emotional state.

If you think about how we try to help children with "problem" behaviours, we don't just try to "train" them out of acting aggressively; we deal with the child's whole lifestyle, early experiences, relationships with parents etc in a holistic way. Why shouldn't we be looking at pet behaviour similarly?

So I completely agree & understand why the woman you referred to managed to make both her own & the dog's quality of life so much better by focussing on what it could do and enjoyed doing rather than getting bogged down by forcing the dog into situations where it felt forced to act aggressively. And I wouldn't mind betting that by doing this, the dog's aggressive behaviour has started to decrease
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SarahJade
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04-06-2011, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
why? its not a person

some dogs that give it the 'big i am' wouldnt actually follow through with hurting it,its a go away,leave me alone.i iz big and scary,u dont wanna see me...that isnt true DA either.
I am simply trying to get across that if the dog is kicking off big time, and getting worked up because of other dogs (so is becoming highly stressed) that cannot be good for the dog, if a person had panic attacks when around other people would we simply say 'yeah that's just them, accept it and be happy'? Or would we recommend a psychologist and some counselling to get the bottom of it.
If the dog is trying to scare the other dog of by acting big and scary doesn't that show some signs that the dog is unhappy/stressed/scared. Shouldn't we work towards teaching the dog that it can be calm, and the other dogs wont come near, because we as the owner are in control and will keep them safe? If a dog doesn't like other dogs, fine, I find it strange, but each to their own. But if it has a reaction then I think there could be something done to help the dog over come this.
And no it isn't true DA but it is a reaction to dogs, which to me in an unwanted behaviour and stressful to the dogs and often people involved.
I hope this makes sense.
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