Dogsey

Dead horse Jackie, you're beating it. I can kinda get the e collar with the health problem, that doesn't bother me overmuch, but using it to teach recall, I just straight up don't agree with that.

However, it's pointless to argue about it. People can train their dogs how they like. She swears by it, and there is no point in continuing to debate the issue. She says it keeps her dog safe and also keeps other dogs safe. She credits it with saving Ben's life.

What power do your words hold at this point? You guys are going in circles. I mean if you see a point in it, go ahead but I don't.

yet you need to have your say !!

What's that last remark supposed to mean Jackie? Myra is absolutely entitled to have her say, as you are, as we all are. The discussion we are having about the rights and wrongs of e-collars is indeed pointless, because we are going round and round in circles. I have the evidence of Ben being at last accepting and trusting us because of it, but you and others refuse to see - either because you don't believe me, or you don't WANT to believe me - that for Ben it has worked, it is the Holy Grail.

But as sure as eggs are eggs, you, Myra, Azz, Musher, everybody have the right to stand up and tell me that I am cruel if that is what you think. And Myra has the right to have her say, willy nilly, whether you like it or not.

Jackie, this is nonsense what you've said:

"Amongst all this waffling on about "free spirit and humanity" it seems in the 3/4 years you first used the e.collar you still need to rely on it to stop Ben running off....... that does not spell success to me, it says you have to rely on it "just in case" Ben decides to ignore you. what has Ben learnt in the years you have owned him, nothing as far as I can see , because you still need to use the pain to control him."

For starters, we have not used the e collar for 3-4 years.

Secondly, when you take your dogs out for a walk, presumably you take pooh bags with you - always? Just in case (even though maybe they have already gone in the garden, or this is their second walk of the day, or whatever, just in case you take pooh bags with you). It may be that you train your dogs with treats, your dogs are now extremely obedient, they do not need constant reward any more - yet still you might have some biscuits in your pocket - "just in case".

If you use clicker trainer, presumably those of you who do always carry the clicker with you?

Many people have dogs who are so obedient that they rarely go on a lead, however, they still carry on - "just in case".

Well, Ben still wears his e-collar, and OH still carries the controller - JUST IN CASE. This is what a responsible dog owner does who has a dog with DA. Despite all the best training in the world, NO DOG IS PERFECT. NO DOG IS 100% guaranteed not to do something stupid. So, we like to carry the e collar with us, in other words Ben wears it ... just in case.

This is responsible behaviour on our part. We have not had to use it for yonks apart from with the perianal fistulas recently.

We don't use pain to control him, we control him because he wants to be controlled - he gets it now. He let me put my finger into his extremely sore and itchy ear this morning to apply tea tree without even a growl - I would have been very very badly bitten had I done this not so long ago, even if he was muzzled. We can do anything to Ben now and we do not muzzle him. This in itself is sending huge signals to the dog - I am saying to him Ben, I trust you not to bite me. I can read him now mainly from his eyes, and I know when he is getting uncomfortable so I can stop whatever it is I am grooming. I never ever push him to the point where his eyes go hard, you can see the whites and his ears are no longer pointed out horizontally - all this happens in an instant and you need to be alert in order to trust him and not put the muzzle on him. I reapplied some iodine lotion to his bottom this morning, and held his tail up high to do this, something he does not like, but he stood for me like the trooper he is with never a murmer.

This is the level of mutual trust and respect that now exists between Ben and us.

Of cause she is, what it was supposed to mean is simple......... Myra informed me she thinks its a pointless exercise to continue to reply to the thread yet she felt the need to point it out to me... hence my reply, because if she thought it was really pointless she would not feel the need to point it out to me!!

BTW....... I have just re-read Myra`s post and I take a different meaning to it, I think she was basically saying , we are wasting time and effort, I agree with her on that one.

Here`s a question for you Gnasher, one I don`t think anyone has asked you before. lets say you have a different breed in future, say a Lab/Goldie or anything you like, and despite your training it has a poor recall, or becomes aggressive to other dogs......... what would you do , would you use an e.collar on said dog.

Wrong, that was not what I meant. I think continuing to call her cruel over and over is pointless. I think it's mean, and what's the point? You've already called her cruel and accuse her of not caring about her dog enough to use kinder methods. Why continue to beat her up about it?

Chris is doing this right, she's asking legitimate questions and trying to talk things out without pretty much repeating the same thing over and over. I didn't mean replying here was pointless. Musher did right, he is trying to make a point indirectly. YOU are just pointing the finger totally at her as if she's the only person in the universe that uses the collars.

Continuing to personally attack her on the subject I think is pointless. Surely even you can see that? Perhaps you are trying to change her mind, perhaps you're waiting for some type of admission, or perhaps you're just trying to put her on blast, but I'm not getting at what you're trying to accomplish.

But I can usually never gauge what you're trying to accomplish.

Oh well we all get it wrong sometimes..

Btw , can you show me where I called her cruel in this thread....also I did not realise you had been made some sort of moderator on this forum, if I missed it congratulations, if not, then DONT tell me what I can and can't write and reply to...

This has got to be the most astounding thread this relatively twee little board has ever seen, multiple grown adults have devolved to the level of teenagers over a person or persons failing to share their exact opinion (which is 100% correct beyond all contestation of course). Half the posts contain some degree of personal attack and most likely the only reason the mods haven't stepped in is because half of them are knee-deep in it themselves.

Play on ladies and gentlemen...